The worthless PC NAZI's have been striking from afar with their ridiculous city-wide smoking bans, outrageous lawsuits, ludicrous penalties, slanderous and demonizing commercials (paid for with my money), and massive taxes every time they need to fix the state budget. (Yet smokers are still shit on even though we subsidize all you other fuckers).

But ya know...I can still afford a pack. I can smoke in bars. Generally, I could live with the status quo. But now my Mom's place of work is taking a page out of the NAZI's from Michigan handbook and they're threatening to send home any employee who comes to work smelling like smoke. There is also no smoking permitted outside the building, in the parking lot, or even in your fucking car!

This is a hospital for Christs sake, people get fricken stressed out, whether an employee, a patient, or family of a patient. People are gonna smoke. But no says the Furher atop the business. Thou shalt not enjoy personal freedoms nor exercise the right to choose if you want to work here...unless of course you want to kill a baby. (which is A-OK!...ok, it's a cheap shot, I'm pro-choice myself, but just pointing out the absurdity of this).

And this is seriously fucking pissing me off. Where do these goose-stepping, frog marching cocksucking bastards get off imposing this kind of bullshit. If they want to say that you can't partake in a perfectly legal and legitimate behavior on their time, fine. But do not begin to fucking tell them what they can't do on their own time. These aren't NBA players or public celebrities hired to convey a particular public image of your brand or business. These are every day fucking workers like everyone else who shouldn't have to be handcuffed by 'the man's' fucking notions of how the proletariet should run their lives.

Fuck all of them. May hurricanes leap out of fucking lake michigan and descend upon the houses and businesses of anyone who came up with this ridiculous fucking notion. Boils, locusts, and all the other fucking plagues of Egypt upon these bastards. Morons each and every last one of them. Pissed off.

Wow...that was hardly necessary. What a hateful little shit.

QUOTE (Nov 6 2005, 09.38)

this way we dont have to hear you bitch all the time about your right to kill yourselves

I know those obscure little concepts of personal freedoms, individual choice, and property rights might as well be greek to burgeoning little socialists, but I'll explain it very simply for ya. Smoking is a legal, legitimate behavior. We have decided for a variety of different reasons to engage in it. Just like many other people have decided to eat too many fatty foods, or to not exercise, or to rant like holier than thou self righeous pricks about others who don't make the same choices they do. We all have the right to do that. And believe it or not, not all of us did it because we saw the cool kids at school doing it and wanted to be like them. Like most people who aren't criminals, we prefer not to be called scum, tools, brats or other things of that nature. Nor do we give a damn whether you think we're entitled to outrage or not.

Now I know in a perfect world, you'd like to impose your morality upon everyone else and ban this behavior, ridicule and criminalize everyone who partakes in it. Just because you justify it with a Hammer and Sickle rather than a Bible doesn't make it any different. But thankfully we live in a country that, while run by nutcases, isn't run by the worst of them.

And I'm glad you think that being a smoker disqualifies people from certain job knowledge, but thankfully not everyone is a prejudicial bigot who judges others' worth entirely on whether they engage in a perfectly legal behavior or not.

And you think for a second that your unreasonable prejudice against smokers might just be influenced by years of (smoker subsidized) slanderous commercials that continually portray smokers as revolting, filthy ingrates. That perhaps you might be a 'tool' of that propaganda?

Enough with the rhetoric, lets get to the other shit. As a hospital worker, people are gonna be wheezing and puking on you at some point whether they're a smoker or not. We just have the decency to do it at 65 or so rather than 80-90 when all we can do is smile toothlessly and shit ourselves. You should be thanking us.

We subsidize every state, local, and federal budget with the ridiculous taxes on every pack of cigarettes. We pay higher for insurance. Die before we collected Social Security or Medicaid. We contribute more and get less, once more, you should be thanking us.

We don't try to force our behavior upon you. We don't demand smoking rooms in our office buildings or factories. The only thing that we really want are the bars. Or to put it more accurately, we want the private businesses owners to exercise their freedom of choice to decide whether or not to have it on their property. Not too much to ask. We're content to go out into the cold and rain with little more than idle bitching. But I know most won't understand this, but it is absolute truth...a cigarette and beer are meant to be together. One is unfulfilled without the other. Thou shalt not take our bars.

We pay alot of public and personal costs for our choice and we're more than willing to keep paying them. We don't ask for much. Just that what we currently have left isn't ripped from us. But no, that's not enough for the 'we will eliminate all your rights, you dirty scum!' types. They want it all. We've given up and given in on just about every point. Often because we agreed with you guys. Sometimes because we didn't see it as worth fighting, since many felt guilty for their habits to begin with. But it's reached the point of absurdity. And some of us are saying 'No More!'.

And I'm sure you get outraged over the patriot act and rightfully so. There are far too many dangerous provisions in there. But when was the last time the Patriot Act affected you directly? Or someone you know? Or anyone you know personally? This 'smokers are evil' crap threatens to affect me every day. May put friends of mine out of business. Is affecting my family. And you wonder why I'm pissed?

QUOTE (Ser Scot A Ellison @ Apr 16 2009, 10.08)

What's wrong with people who don't smoke and don't care whether or not you smoke?

I subsidize your ass and you haven't paid me back yet. Nor taken up arms to get me my money or rights back. Nor advocated that someone should take up arms for those moneys and rights. Nor stated that we should be hypothetically entitled to secede in order to bring back and preserve those moneys and rights. And you haven't said thank you.

QUOTE (ldygrffn @ Apr 16 2009, 20.06)

eh, that's not quite fair. when all of your friends are at a smoking bar, you either go to said bar and hang out with your friends, or sit at home and think about what a good time all of your friends are having. as a smoker, i have never had to worry about this, but before the smoking ban here, it was a complaint i heard from non-smoking friends, and, IMO, it was valid.

Then that person should consider new friends if its a big enough deal. Not my problem, your problem, the business owner's problem, and it sure as fuck shouldn't be the state's problem.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 16 2009, 15.10)

That's almost like demanding people who don't drink to go say "thank you" to alcoholics for their contributions via sin tax.

When alcoholics pay $50 for a $5 bottle of rotgut run, then they can compare their 'sin taxes' to mine. How many state budgets are we saving each and every damned year? 'Well, we've got a budget shortfall...do we raise property tax 2%? Sales tax 1%? I know, another dollar per pack on cigarettes! Fuck the smokers!' Everyone's in favor of passing the buck and because smokers have such a pariah status (created in part by an anti-smoker smear campaign funded by our tax dollars. That's right, I'm paying for the state to insult and degrade me. Joy.) along with the fact that most of them feel guilty about it in the first place, noone raises a big fuss. God forbid we actually pass the costs of running society onto the actual fucking society. So yes, I expect a thank you. Unless you can find some other product that's taxed at near the level of cigarettes, or another perfectly legal behavior that's as marginalized and ostracized as smoking?

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 17 2009, 09.46)

Yes, the magnitude of the tax is different,

And when the magnitude is so fucking severe and there's nothing legal that's even remotely close in human existence to that severity, all the rest of the 'comparisons' don't deserve a moment's consideration. Find me something, ANYTHING else that's taxed at even 100% and then we'll talk. But while cigarettes are taxed at 1,000% in some states, I will continue to laugh off anything you or anyone else tries to pigeonhole in the same category. Because there is nothing near the category. Smokers are being fucked like noone else whose behavior is still legal. There is nothing else close.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 17 2009, 09.46)

but they are the same in intent - people who choose to partake in that product have to pay that sin tax, whereas people who choose not to partake in that product don't have to. The choice is also a selfish choice, because you sure as hell don't get drunk or light up a cigarette with the intention of supporting the government.

Yes I choose to smoke. People choose to eat big macs, but noone demands that they pay $10 dollars per bite of one. I'll gladly pay a sin tax. But I get a pissed off by a smack you in the face, kick you in the nuts, throw you to the ground, mug you to cover the budget, curbstomp you repeatedly with a baseball bat and let the dogs tear apart your corpse tax. Cause where I'm sitting, no other legal product, no matter how harmful it is, gets near that kind of treatment.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 17 2009, 09.46)

So bare your fangs at the Obama administration and your state government, and leave us nonsmokers out of it. We didn't get a say in the tax anymore than you did. It was by your own decision that you came to start smoking, don't hate us for making a different choice than you. And sure as hell don't expect a "thank you" for your own selfish actions, unless you decided to start smoking purely so that you could pay additional taxes so we wouldn't have to.

Fuck yeah you got a say. You get a say in every godamned state budget when someone even WHISPERS the word property/sales tax hike. Everyone starts shouting and screaming like decapitated chickens under falling skies. Then they add another dollar to cigarettes instead, everyone else breaths a sigh of relief that the cost of running society has been dumped off on to social undesirables, and goes about their day.

And who gives a fuck about the motivation behind my actions? They're irrelevant. The fact is though, I PAY FOR YOU. I pay for you and countless other non-smokers because not a single one of you is willing to shoulder their share of the cost of running society. They enjoy passing it off upon others. And not others who have benefited more from what society offers and are in a better financial position to contribute (aka, the wealthy), but ordinary people from all walks of life that 10 years of slander, propaganda, and ostracization has rendered social pariahs.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 17 2009, 09.46)

The smoking indoor thing, though, is also kinda asinine, considering there are quite a few people with asthma who can not be around smoke without it acting up. It's a health concern, plain and simple. Bars, yeah sure, nobody has to go to a bar, but you can't say the same about banks, government buildings, and stores. And if it wasn't for the whole asthma/health thing, I would probably be more sympathetic.

If you don't like the smell of smoke, don't like the hypothetical (I don't think people are getting cancer from a few hours a week at the bars...could be wrong) health effects of limited exposure, or if you have asthma (one would hope you moved out of the city before targeting smokers, but whatever) or other breathing problems there is a very simple solution: Don't go where there's smoke. Even before this most recent spate of kneejerk nanny-statism, smoking was banished from every indoor public place but restaurants, bars, and casinos. Every restaurant had a non-smoking section and many were going full non-smoking before the states even got involved. So just about every other place on the continent, non-smoking. 98% of the jobs out there, non-smoking environment.

So really the only remaining issue is bars. And since smokers go out as a higher percentage then non-smokers (and tip better), since even alot of non-smokers smoke while drinking, and since one smoking friend can get a group of 5 otherwise non-smokers to go to the smoking bar, there's very little market for non-smoking bars. I'm not going to say 'don't go to bars', since I like em and they're pretty much the nexus of most adult social interaction outside of work. But there are solutions that needn't involve fucking the smoker. In particular, the state fucking the smoker. Which they've been doing for more then a decade with the tacit approval of non-smokers everywhere. I'd prefer to let the market sort it out, but the market would fuck non-smokers in this case, so I'm trying to be fair.

Municipality (or county-wide, whatever) based smoking licenses. Available for bidding by bars and clubs, but only in limited numbers. Say...enough for 1/4th of the drinking establishments out there. That way smokers have a place, non-smokers have tons of places, noone gets fucked, and we have a HUGE new source of tax revenue cause these bars would pay through the nose for that shit. For metro areas with enough options, the percentage of smoking licenses can be subdivided across region, across bar type (so you can have smoking pubs as well instead of pricey nightclubs buying up all the licenses), etc. Its a great fucking solution.

But noone ever considers it because the goose-stepping, fascist do-gooder fucks at the American Lung Association (sponsors of nearly every anti-smoking initiative in the nation) and their other freedom-hating cronies, along with their paternalistic, nanny-state loving government operatives DON'T GIVE A FUCK about fairness or free choice. So fuck them. Fuck state, local, and federal governments. Fuck you and every other non-smoker out there. Fuck everyone.

QUOTE (Seventh Pup @ Apr 17 2009, 12.17)

For the amount of money smoking cost the government per year I think it is only fair they pay more taxes. Seriously a lot of smoking health side effects only kick in once the fuckers are on Medicare/Medicaid. According to the CDC smokers cost America $92 billion. Don't know how much you smoke EHK but I would be surprised if you reach 75 with out draining the current system of 10 more then you pay in cigarette taxes because of your habit. Federal tax is about $1 per pack, not sure what the state tax is where you live, either way you probably are going to be taking more out then you put in.

Back when I cared about winning this argument, I've read several studies that differ. Fact is people are gonna incur medical costs whether they have health problems at 55 and die at 60 as a smoker, or do much the same thing (with a few decades slurping up overpriced Big Pharm cocktails) at 75 or 80. They largely cancel out. I'd be curious to see what all the CDC factored in to get their numbers. The amount paid into and received from Social security does not cancel however. We pay the same and take out a shitload less. (dying early) People talk alot of shit about saving social security, but noone really does jack about it. I'm doing my part. and so is every other smoker. Want to save Social Security? Lower the punitive smoking sin tax to a reasonable level (say comparable to the second highest percentage sin tax in the country, whatever that might be), encourage smoking, problem solved. You know what else doesn't cancel? The 500%-1,000% tax smokers pay per pack.

Also, even if smokers did cost more medically, even if all the other shit didn't cancel out their overall cost, noone applies the same standard to people who eat to much. People who don't work out. Fast food. Unhealthy chain restaurants. Nothing. We've got an obesity epidemic that's quickly become the #1 health problem in the country. Noone's ranting about how much they cost our health care system and demanding insane tax rates.

QUOTE (crannoggirl @ Apr 17 2009, 16.15)

Nah, they have just as many if not more costly and drawn out medical issues. They just pay into the system for less long so contribute less to paying their bills. However, I'm with EHK that obese people are probably as bad if not worse about costing tons of money with medical issues. So although I think cigarettes should be taxed, taxing them to such an extreme amount is probably unfair.

Eh...most smokers do make it into retirement age, so they typically pay into the system just as much as others. But they don't collect near as much on Social Security, long term nursing home care so common with the elderly, nor the extensive prescription drug regimes popular with geriatrics. Its not hard to find studies that suggest they're a net societal benefit costwise before we even factor in absurd cigarette taxes.