This has become the official shittiest thread on the board.

The absense of group hugs makes it a shitty thread?

No, you made it a shitty thread.

It's okay to disagree, but it seems like all this thread is is 2 people screaming at each other, and it's not even related to TF's.

Wonk, this is the 'General' forum...here we can bitch about stuff that isn't Transformers related. Thats why it exists. But I (of course) see things a bit differently. You have one person making reasonable criticisms and legitimate arguments about a subject...and the other kicking and screaming with throw away one liners because people have the audacity to disagree about her pet cause.

Are you still here?

You want research bonehead, here, since you are obviously to lazy to look it up yourself.

http://www.dolphins.org/
http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/Bottlenose/home.html
http://www.earthtrust.org/delphis.html
http://www.pulseplanet.com/feat_archive/Oct01/
http://home.snafu.de/ulisses/tursiops.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin
http://www.tursiops.org/

Now before you go shooting your mouth off again, read and learn instead talk and be ignorant.

Lets see. They're the most commonly seen and studied dolhpins in the world. Appearing in large numbers on just about every coastal area throughout the world...so, yep...that pretty much invalidates your concerns of damaging the eco-system due to the removal of a few hundred. They are not at risk or endangered.

Lets see...those living in captivity have comparable (if not longer) life expectancies, due largely to improved nutrition, more reliable food sources, optimum husbandry (their words, not mine), and access to medical care. Doesn't sound all that bad. Plus they serve the purpose of introducing new generations to the wonders of exotic animals and acquatic life, grooming the next generations environmentalists..."The unique opportunity to observe and learn directly from live animals increases public awareness and appreciation of wildlife. In the protected environment of a marine zoological park, scientists can examine aspects of dolphin biology that are difficult or impossible to study in the wild." (quoted part, their words, not mine)

So how does capturing them hurt your cause exactly?

"chimpanzees have the ability to recognize their own reflections in a mirror - a behavior which researchers say demonstrates a high degree of intelligence, possibly even consciousness" (they applied this to dolpins too)

Possibly consciousness. They can't conclude that. Intelligence is a relative term. If we're talking compared to goldfish, hell..they're geniuses, but we've yet to develop an artificial standard by which a creature can be judged 'intelligent or not', so the term is inadequate. Their quaint little tests to prove awareness suffer from the fact that their conclusions are merely educated guesses as to what the evidence suggests. Does realizing that a TV screen is not reality (even if they behaved as if it was to start) imply awareness? Or is that simply what researchers want to conclude? Or are all these tests merely conditioned responses? Hell, we can teach a dog to behave a certain way upon command with proper repetition. They're simply quicker at it. It doesn't prove consciousness nor awareness.

The studies all suffer from tiny sample sizes as well. Creativity tests? They've found similar results in pigeons and rats. Brain size? Conclusive of nothing as they don't have a convincing measure by which to weigh the relevant portions of the brain vs. body size minus blubber.

So your wrong on the first point. And the jury's been out for 40 years with no conclusions on the other.

No I'm not, many of those reports CLEARLY say what I have said, not my fault if you can't comprehend all the big words.

Silverstreak, you have a bit of trouble comprehending what is accepted science and what is a hypothesis with substantial, but inconclusive evidence. It would be scientifically irresponsible for any of these researchers to decide they have anything conclusive, so they don't. Anyone in your links who does is either a hack or a nutcase.

These studies suffer from alot of failings, which in your links most of the researchers recognize and admit. First and foremost, that these tests and the standards they use in them to indicate awareness or not are artificial constructs and they're unsure how applicable they really are. Plus, differing definitions on just what is awareness prevail. Add in small sample sizes, limited repeats, and a relatively small variety of tests...and you're left with alot of problems.

There is not enough evidence to suggest that the hypothesis of conscious awareness in dolphins become actual scientific theory. Don't just read the cover pages of your links, where they toss out propaganda bits for types like you who don't know enough to seek further confirmation, get into the studies themselves...the conclusions...and the criticisms.

Perhaps your lack of understanding of the scientific method coupled with your dire need to believe what supports your rather limited world-view has skewed your perspective a bit.

I have read more than just the cover pages. I know how to read and comprehend text thank you. Those are only some of the vast amounts of research I have done. All of them back up what I said. I don't think you understand what they are talking about. Most of the people who study Dolphins agree they are self aware and highly intelligent, anyone who thinks they are just another stupid animal is ignorant to proven facts by real professions. My view of the world is certainly far from limited, I know a great deal about world affairs and what is going on.

Silverstreak, you've not addressed the substance of a single one of my arguments. You are either incapable of convincingly arguing against them or you simply do not understand them. If you cannot comprehend the inherent limitations in the studies and methodologies of these creatures, most of which are admitted by the researchers themselves, than there's not much I can do for you.

And you can know every major global incident of the last century, still doesn't mean shit if you continue to view the world with blinders on. You're not very good at this.

I'm done debating with you, you don't get it and I'm tired of proving my point over and over.

I'm dropping the discussion, I already don't care for you very much and the more this draws on, the more I will dislike you.

What is it you don't get??????? I fail to understand how you can tell me you have read all of the information on all of those sites (of which as I said were just a small sample) and still say I don't know how to comprehend whayt I have read and that I'm wrong.

Have you ever seen a real dolphin? Have you ever interacted with one? I have done both, more than once. These animals are highly intelligent and self aware, and the information I have set forth proves I'm right..

So you don't agree, fine, I get that, I got that from your first unenlightened post.

As I said, I'm done with this. People who see the initial post and want to help will, those who don't, won't.

Your inability to understand science and the scientific method coupled with your preconcieved notions and delusions cloud your ability to make a proper conclusion here. You have no addressed any of the limitations of the studies set forth in my posts. Not addressed any of the criticisms. You have proven...just about nothing, and yet insist you have.

I'm gonna pass it off to your youth, because the way you go on...you couldn't be more than 15/16. Give it time.

Look, I know what I'm talking about, I just wrote a paper on it for College, I'm not some stupid kid. As I said, read everything on those websites, that's just the tip of the iceberg, and even that should take you several hours to read. Then do some more research, you'll see I'm right.