QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 09.15)

I'm currently studying traditional Japanese Jujutsu, specifically Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei, which is vastly different than most other types of jujutsu taught. The main differences between what I study and the more MMA style jujutsu classes are, the art is taught as a martial art and an instrument of war, to defend yourself and to enable you to protect others. As such we're taught to kick to the groin, knees, etc., because in a real fight there are no rules. There's heavy emphasis on why you're fighting, and not fighting for the wrong reasons (i.e. because he hurt my pride or insulted me.) As such, we don't really ever spar for two reasons: the first, sparring with rules turns the art into more of a sport, and two, sparring with the techniques we learn can very easily lead to serious injury. But, all of our techniques are done with a partner, so you do get the experience of having done them to someone.

How can you actually get anything useful (fightingwise) out of a martial art without sparring? Learning technique is fine and dandy, but it never really lasts first contact in its 'pure and pretty' form. How can you expect to apply it in a 'real' situation if you don't practice against a fully resisting opponent? Yeah you can't do the groin kick and eyegouge shit, but you can use the rest. BJJ from what I understand manages to incorporate a hell of alot of fight-useful material into the 'sport and sparring' aspect of their martial art, presumably there's a large share of your martial art that could be applied as well.

Also, (opening up to the rest) how prominent is the spiritual/self-discipline stuff these days? Do most martial arts schools still teach it? Or has that sort of romanticism been shattered by MMA?

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 11.09)

For your first question, I think you're making some assumptions about how we train in this art. Just because we don't spar, doesn't mean we don't learn how to react, or how to move. In most martial arts the bulk of the art are various kata and drills, which are done by yourself. Which is all fine and dandy, except this art, /everything/ is done with a partner. Everything is practiced against someone, who (should) be resisting you, and forcing you to do the technique correctly, and from a variety of different situations. We just make sure that the person receiving knows how to safely receive the technique, so that nobody is injured.

And, I have sparred. I sparred quite a lot when taking Taekwondo as a kid, Wing Chun in high school, and some when I was doing Shaolin Kung Fu. I don't miss it, nor would I honestly want to spar with this art; it's too dangerous and I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. Did I enjoy sparring? Yeah, but at the same time I realize now all the things wrong with fighting like that. And if I'm to get into a real fight, where I have to defend someone, the last thing I want to do is default to sparring rules.

The points we train to strike, the temple, the neck, the knee, the groin, you just can't hit in a spar, they are also by far the most effective points to hit. One swift kick to the knee and your attacker will go down, and perhaps never walk right again. The locks we do, you can't really use in a spar because if you apply even a little to much pressure, the joint will break.

A partner is better than a drill, but a partner still strikes me as less useful than an opponent. The former seems like a slightly more mobile practice dummy. Good for a start, but it still doesn't tell you if you'll be able to apply any of those techniques against a moving, dodging, blocking, striking, and resisting opponent. I did some Americanized Kenpo (forgot which) back in the day, and yeah, there was an heavy emphasis on the whole array of combat useful, life-or-death dirty fighting shit that you mention. But we still sparred. And we didn't forget how to do the groins/knees/necks simply because we sparred.

Also, how many fights have you heard of that ended with a swift knee collapsing kick? The shit sounds great in concept, but its a tad difficult to apply in a fight. Fighting is messy. Its sloppy. Technique is important, but its never gonna look as pretty or be applied as simply as it is on the practice mat. Those smaller pressure points and vulnerable areas are a hell of alot harder to hit when someone's actively resisting and fighting back. I wrestled for years, we learned a hell of alot of moves, practiced them against semi-passive (some resistance, but not full) partners hundreds of times. But at the end of the day you still had to apply it on the mat against an opponent who was trying to do the same shit (or worse) to you. No surprise that its a hell of alot harder and doesn't look half as pretty then.

Presumably you still learn punches, kicks, throws, etc. Things that can be done in a sparring environment without a high risk of serious injury. It just might be useful to learn how to apply those things in the closest, safe approximation of combat available.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 11.09)

the first, sparring with rules turns the art into more of a sport

Let's break this down. By saying sparring turns the art into a "sport," I assume you mean that this is less realistic than training for the street? Is this correct? If not, ignore the next statement.

Full-contact sparring has its limitations. However, it is the closest safe simulation of an actual fight you can get. The main criticism of sparring is that its limitations make it too unrealistic. However, every other method of training has even more restrictions, and is thus even less realistic. Sparring is essential to learning how to fight. There is absolutely no way around this.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 11.09)

Which is all fine and dandy, except this art, everything is done with a partner. Everything is practiced against someone, who (should) be resisting you, and forcing you to do the technique correctly, and from a variety of different situations. We just make sure that the person receiving knows how to safely receive the technique, so that nobody is injured.

What do you mean by "resisting" in this case? How can drilling a pre-set move replace the inherent unpredictability of a sparring partner who is trying to hurt you and simultaneously trying to not get hurt? Could you expand on these drills you do?

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 11.09)

And if I'm to get into a real fight, where I have to defend someone, the last thing I want to do is default to sparring rules.

Again, surely the rules involved with pre-set drills are more restrictive than the rules of full-contact sparring? Please explain how a drill can possibly be less restrictive than sparring?

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 11.09)

The points we train to strike, the temple, the neck, the knee, the groin, you just can't hit in a spar, they are also by far the most effective points to hit. One swift kick to the knee and your attacker will go down, and perhaps never walk right again. The locks we do, you can't really use in a spar because if you apply even a little to much pressure, the joint will break.

I've been hit in all these points whilst sparring full-contact, often and repeatedly. Sure, they hurt at the time but I'm still here. I've also been joint-locked, thrown, choked out and generally man-handled in BJJ sparring. I've never had a joint broken because I know when to tap. The "too deadly to spar" excuse is just that, an excuse.

I'm sorry if I come across as aggressive in this post, but this is something I feel very strongly about. Sparring is essential -absolutely, no substitutes accepted essential - to learning how to fight. To get good at fighting, you have to fight, and sparring is the closest substitute available with an acceptable risk of injury.

What Liff said. Who expressed most of what I was going for better (and with fewer sentences) than I did.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 12.00)

You're baiting the question, a true martial artist learns how to fight so he doesn't have to. I don't go looking for fights to test myself, nor am I about to start. If I have to protect something, then I'll fight, but until then, why? I'm not going to pick a fight with a guy because he's an ass at a bar.

Hogwash. A martial art is a system of fighting. Its combat. You are no more or less a 'true' martial artist if you avoid fighting like the plague or pick a fight with every comer at a bar. You fight (or at least spar) now so that you have the instincts, timing, and reactions for when you might really need it. So that you know what it feels like to hit and be hit. So that you know you can attack and defend against an opponent under less sterile, less ideal conditions (aka, when they're fighting back). You'll never know if you can do those things unless you test them. And it'd be a good idea to find out before you're thrust into a situation where it becomes necessary.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 12.00)

Yeah, we've learned throws and punches and random other takedowns that could be used in a spar, but that describes maybe half to a third of the art. A bulk of it are wrist locks, elbow locks, and other things which wouldn't be allowed in an actual sparring environment. The emphasis when training is on safety, and not injuring the other person, and when you're already training with techniques that can seriously fuck a person's day up, adding in the sparring element is just asking for disaster.

It'd still be ideal to hone that third or half in the closest, safe approximation to combat available.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 12.00)

Of course, I'm also not yet black belt. They may very well spar, or do something to gather that sort of experience at that level, where they are better in control of their actions and their technique than those still working on their kyuu levels. But, to be honest, the techniques that are taught in this art are not meant for sparring, at least by those who are incapable of controlling themselves.

I cannot imagine any sport training (or combat training for that matter) that is well served by keeping the person out of full speed action for years until they've learned to pull their punches better. How long does it take a competent individual to reach black belt? 5 years? More? Half a decade in a combat art before they actually teach you how to fight? Sounds a bit inefficient.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 12.00)

But I wanted the tradition and history that this art provides, whose roots can be traced back easily several generations. I wanted a chance to go to Japan and study under a Japanese grandmaster, and I have. This is the art that suits me, and what I want, and I know that if I keep up with it, I will be able to defend myself and protect myself, even without sparring. But that doesn't make it, or its practices, wrong. Just different, and perhaps wrong for you, based on what you want.

If that's all you're looking for, then to each their own. But as for the bolded part, NO, you don't know if you'll be able to defend yourself. You never know that until you're called upon to defend yourself. Ideally we avoid those situations, but it still makes to practice how you might respond to such a situation. And the most effective way to really do that is against a live, full speed opponent who is trying to defend himself and attack you as well.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 13.41)

Spoken like someone who is completely ignorant about how several different martial arts works. Congratulations. Many traditional dojos will expel you if you go around picking fights and ruining the dojo's name.

Spoken like someone who watched too many kung fu movies as a kid and is still sold on all that cliched, overly romanticized passive mystic bullshit.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 13.41)

And, of course, you are the end-all be-all expert on sports and martial arts. How silly of me to think that anything could ever be different than what you imagine. I'll go notify all those people taking Tai Chi that they should immediately start sparring. (And before you say "but Tai Chi isn't a martial art", when my Wing Chun teacher, who married into a Chinese family and studied for quite a long time in China, tells us that his favorite art for defending himself is Tai Chi, it counts.)

I'm the be all, end all expert on common sense. Common sense tells me that the best way to learn how to wrestle is to wrestle. The best way to learn to punch is to punch. The best way to learn how to masturbate is to practice 4 times daily. And the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. (all of this after an appropriate level preliminary training of course, whatever that might be) If you're going just to enhance your mental focus, self-discipline, spiritual growth, or physical conditioning, then fair enough. But if you're going to learn how to fight, then you are not well served by not fighting. Naturally all out, no rules fighting is both illegal and dangerous, so you take the closest safe and legal approximation that you can, which is sparring.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 13.41)

But, what I will say is, I feel better prepared now for that situation than I ever did taking Taekwondo or Wing Chun or any of the others, even though they did spar. I'm far more confident in my ability to block and escape now, and in my techniques than I was previously.

Couldn't that instead be seen as a damning indictment of Taekwondo and Wing Chun (or at least the particular schools you attended) rather than active fight training/sparring?

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 13.41)

And that is not something you can claim otherwise, knowing nothing about this art, how we practice it, what we learn, or anything else. All you can do is sit on the outside and speculate, and you won't even admit that it's speculation and that you could be wrong.

Naturally I could be wrong. I never suggested otherwise. But all things being equal, I would MUCH rather face a martial arts blackbelt from a non-active resistance training (non-sparring/fighting) school in a fight than some mid-level belt holder in BJJ/Muay Thai or other active fighting art. They strike me as MUCH more dangerous and effective.

QUOTE (Ken Stone @ Apr 28 2009, 14.14)

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy between Those who actively spar vs Those who avoid fighting at all costs. Who says you can't do both? In that scenario you actively spar so you are not helpless if the "avoid fighting" fails. Let's face it, if you really want to avoid fighting at all costs you would be better off training track and field, than you would training a martial art.

On that a side note which is the better method to train track and field. A) Running really fast, resting, then running really fast again or B) Practice the running motions slowly.

Heh...I had a near identical point typed out earlier, but I thought it was a tad bit too snarky and deleted it. Bah...gotta trust those instincts.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 14.54)

That's not what you're claiming, though. What you're claiming is that the /only/ way to learn how to fight is to fight, which is what I disagree with. You seem to think that I will be utterly defenseless if I don't go out and spar regularly, or join a dojo that spars all the time. I am disagreeing.

Is this what we're down to? Semantics? Naturally some practice, even if its never against a live, resisting opponent, is better then none. I thought that pretty much went without saying. But is it a terribly effective means of learning to fight compared to the more active alternatives out there? I don't think so. I'm not saying you'd be defenseless, I am saying that your defenses are likely to be MUCH better served with some active fight (spar/sport) experience. Being 'able to fight' is a totally arbitrary measure, so I really can't say whether passive technique practice sans active sparring will get you there, largely because we have no set criteria for where 'there' is. But I think you (and everyone else) would be MUCH better prepared to translate technique into action in actual combat situations having practiced as much as possible against resisting/attacking opponents.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 14.54)

And I'll admit, all my sparring experience is with point based sparring, which has me extremely jaded. BJJ, boxing, wrestling, probably very important and probably very useful. But there are quite a lot of dojos that use point based sparring rules which are absolutely worthless, for the reasons Bale mentioned.

Meh, I'll agree with you on point sparring. Its still better than nothing, but with its emphasis on merely connecting cleanly without a thought given to impact or effect, it doesn't help near as much as it should. It still is useful for reflex, defense, timing, and accuracy, things that (IMO) just can't be tested or honed properly without realistic application. (active fighting/sparring against an unpredictable opponent)

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 14.58)

The comparison was made by EHK, who gave two possibilities. The person who avoids fighting, and the person who goes to bars to pick fights. The latter will get you kicked out of most traditional Japanese dojos.

I make absolutely no distinction between those who actively spar and those who avoid fighting, with the exception that dojos who actively spar will inherently draw more people who are only interested in the fighting aspect and proving they are badass. That is not to say that all people who take those arts are taking it for those reasons, only that those kind of people will automatically discredit nonsparring dojos because they do not spar.

I didn't give only those two possibilities. I simply said that the person who picks fights is no less a martial artist (presuming he's a trained expert in a particular martial art) or 'true' martial artist then the Kwai Chang Caine spiritual pacifist. Martial arts is the art of fighting. Its a codified system of combat. Period. Some martial arts add a spiritual or philosophical element, but that is neither inherent nor integral to something being a martial art. The MA that simply teaches you how to kick ass without any other additions is no less a martial art nor its practitioners martial artists.

Considering Chinese (and Japanese, see the Samurai) history and folklore is rife with traveling masters going around, picking fights, and kicking eachothers asses for the 'honor and glory' of their respective schools, I'd say that proving badassery is one of the cornerstones of eastern martial arts. Much like the tournaments in western europe, the warriors needed something to do when there was no war on. And even if honor, discipline, and non-violence were key philosophical concepts of eastern martial arts, I suspect they were much like western Chivalry and martial discipline; more ideal than reality.

QUOTE (Inigima @ Apr 28 2009, 16.25)

EHK,

I'd advise you to reread Stego's posts as I think they capture all the salient points.

I don't recall disputing any of that and agree with most of it.

"I'd like to point out that not once have I claimed any technique was too deadly,"

Well, you did say this:

"(The Grandmaster is 61, and has said that while he couldn't beat us in a fight due to his age, he can kill us. And I believe it. When I was in Japan, I also saw one of Soke's teachers, a man much older than Soke, throw around grown men like rag dolls with very little effort.)"

So...you didn't make the claim, but apparently your Grandmaster has. I've got $20 on Joe the Plumber personally. (actually, I'll give him the edge on the untrained bum. But I suspect Anderson Silva is kicking his ass.)

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 19.08)

Right. Which is obviously the same thing. And I'm obviously an idiot for believing him after seeing what he's capable of, and knowing his background. You obviously know better, despite knowing nothing about the grandmaster or the art. How silly was I to ever argue with the great EHK, the one man who knows everything and is never wrong.

I don't need to know shit about either. I know the master is 61. He'd be going against a highly skilled and trained athletic 20/30 something. Only in movies does that end well for the geriatric. It might just go a little something like this: Youtube video.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 28 2009, 19.08)

Take the chip of your shoulder and the stick out of your ass, EHK. At this point you're just trying to pick more internet fights. Whatever you have against me, just drop it, because it's pretty damn old.

I don't have shit against you. You just happen to be on the wrong side of topics I happen to post on. No chip on the shoulder or stick in the ass. I just get annoyed by the over-romanticism of martial arts and near deification of supposed grandmasters.

QUOTE (Stego @ Apr 29 2009, 02.22)

Not true, man. At least not with my old grandmaster. He could literally destroy handfuls of blackbelts.

If there were grandmasters like that walking around, presumably one of them would have cashed in by wiping out an MMA division by now.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 05.02)

I know of at least one person who had trained for several years in a style and had never sparred, he was attacked by a nutcase/crim/whatever and his reaction was to use the moves he had learned and been practising. He creamed the guy.

Anecdotal and it doesn't contradict anything I've said.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 05.02)

All fights devolve into grunting wrestling matches? Not a hope one person cannot hope to win against more than one of similar size etc if that were the case. Heck the last fight I was in that went that way I was in high school.

Can someone please show me where I said this in this thread?

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 05.02)

I understand that MMA has quite a few people who would rather get in close and grapple than use other skills, fine thats broken fingers and thumbs as far as I am concerned.

You act as if MMA people are incapable of doing these things or would refrain from doing so in a real combat situation. They're fully capable. And given their vast experience in active training and close approximation combat 'simulations' (sport/sparring), they'd likely be much more capable of putting themselves into situations to do all the biting/eye gouging/small joint manipulation. These aren't exactly arcane arts here.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 05.02)

For those of you claiming that spiritual martial arts is all BS let me ask you how you can block a punch coming from behind while driving a bus without the spiritual side?

Spiritual side for personal enrichment or enhanced focus? Fine. Spiritual side for extraordinary metaphysical powers? Yeah, I'm gonna have to see some well documented evidence.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 05.40)

Gee and here I was talking about human spirit not magical powers but I guess you having trained in so many different styles with such incredible masters know all?

If you were simply talking about 'human spirit', then your statement was unclear since 2 of us (possibly 3) thought you were claiming supernatural 'spiritual' intervention. And you don't need to have trained in shit to be legitimately skeptical of any claims of 'magic' whether martial arts related or otherwise.

QUOTE (Stego @ Apr 29 2009, 05.53)

Lyoto Machida is running through the best division in MMA right now. And I don't see anyone who has a chance of beating him. (And he's not a master yet.)

Machida has also trained extensively in sumo, BJJ, wrestling, and Muay Thai, is a very quick and well conditioned athlete, is 31 rather than 61, presumably trains against active opponents. Even the karate he employs is specifically adapted to the sport of MMA and he himself admits that popularly practiced karate is weak for a real fight. He is bringing something somewhat new to the sport, but he also has extensive background in the necessary MMA fundamentals. His success is good for karate, but its not the ringing endorsement for traditional eastern martial arts that some seem to think it is.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 04.50)

Also Sorry to say EHK not everyone is driven by money. Some people in this world are wise enough to know that happiness is a much better goal to aim for.

Not everyone, but certainly there'd be a few. Plus these schools are pretty damned big money-making ventures, I don't think too many of them would pass up the opportunity to quadruple their membership. (which would happen if they started kicking ass and taking names in MMA) Honestly I think alot of them are driven primarily by money, but that's not an argument that can be made reliably either way. Suffice it to say though, if money wasn't a big factor, they'd be running these dojo's as non-profits. (or minimal profits) Last I checked they were pretty damned pricey, a small fortune for the most prominent ones.

QUOTE (gryphon strike @ Apr 29 2009, 04.50)

For example facing 7 guys at once and despite not being able to see them all I had this weird thing going on where those 7 were like red dots on a radar and other people were white dots. it worked VERY well and I didn't get a scratch.

7 people at once actively trying to hurt you with a response that did not primarily involve running like hell? I find that very hard to believe. And I haven't even touched the red/white dots stuff.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 29 2009, 08.25)

That's some fuzzy logic. "Because they haven't done it, then they couldn't do it." You are assuming that if someone has the ability to do something, then therefore they must go do it. And that's a false premise. You're also assuming that these people would kill another person, just to make a bigger name for themselves. That's an even worse premise.

No, I'm simply playing the odds. That with enough grandmasters/58th dan badasses over a long enough time, at least one of them is bound to be a greedy capitalist. Not full proof of course, but it seems slightly more likely than a bunch of super geriatric killing machines able to wreck havoc at will yet all of them unanimously choosing not to.

QUOTE (CiaranAnnrach @ Apr 29 2009, 08.25)

The Japanese Grandmasters simply have no reason to fight an MMA division, or anyone from the MMA. Fighting for reasons of money, or more students, simply isn't a good reason to fight. It might be to you and most other people who are focused on worldly possessions, but you just don't get to the level of Grandmaster in a traditional martial arts with that kind of attitude. Especially since it goes completely against the spiritual side of most (if not all) traditional martial arts, which teaches you to only fight in self defense or when protecting others.

How many of those grandmasters run their dojo's on a not-for-profit basis? They're businesses and they are at least in part businessmen. Speaking of sweeping generalizations, how exactly can you speak for every Grandmaster in Japan? Certainly its possible that at least one of them (or more) might be up for getting rich. Did some reading and alot of martial artists seem to think that your Grandmaster lied on several occasions, presumably to build up his own prestige and that of his school. (Claims that he was taught by Takamatsu, who was apparently some bigwig in the Ninja stuff, when he only ever met the guy once)

On the business front he seems more then happy to charge $25 per (guessing: sweatshop made) t-shirts, along with a wide variety of other memorabilia. Not a terrible price, but when you're talking shirts for students/members to show their pride in their school/organization, the prices are typically closer to 10 and almost never over 20. You charge $25 when you want better margins.

Some accusations that he allows unranked Genbukin practitioners to run official Genbukin dojos, collecting fees for the Grandmaster. (The concern being misrepresentation to the paying students who may have been under the impression that they were being taught by a ranked teacher, which I gathered is a pseudo-big deal) That he invented a hybrid art and called it Koryu Karate, which doesn't matter to me. But apparently some MA's were annoyed since Koryu literally means 'old school' and heavily implies that it is an ancient martial art rather than a recent creation. (They also took issue with calling it karate, but I guess its easier marketing that way)

And my personal favorite, that voices in his head heard while in a plane told him to revive a dead ninja school and claim mastership over it.

QUOTE (Inigima @ Apr 29 2009, 07.38)

EHK and gryph, both of you should probably knock it off

These sweeping generalities are absurd, there are plenty of charlatans peddling nonsense out there but there are also plenty of tough as fuck old dudes I wouldn't want to piss off

Knock off what exactly? This has been every bit as civil as most threads on GC, what's your problem exactly? Why is the peanut gallery hyperventilating so much over this thread?

As for sweeping generalities, please point out a few I've made that qualify as absurd. Skilled old man getting his ass beat by skilled young athlete hardly strikes me as an absurd generality.

QUOTE (Stego @ Apr 29 2009, 13.12)

Fixededed.

Methinks I've seen that thread already.

Nice sig Mormont.

As for what to test, I always liked the Chi/Kiai throwers. The guys who claim to be able to knock someone down (and out on occasions) merely by looking or gesturing at them. Oddly enough the only people it seems to work on are their students and they always have a host of lame excuses for when it doesn't work on random bystanders.

We've got this old man who claims a 200-0 fighting record, demonstrates the 'ability' to ward off dozens of attacking students at once, and shortly in the clip actually manipulates his students at a distance like some strings holding puppet-master. Apparently none of these techniques worked worth a damn against some random MMA nobody. Youtube link

This guy who manages to create an 'energy bubble' around himself that allows him to throw students while barely touching them, what ensues are some of the silliest, fakiest (fuck off, I'm making that a word) 'reactions' you'll see anywhere. As he explains 2:30 in, its all based on ions. Lots and lots of ions. Negative, positive, and the human is a blend of two! Explains everything...with (pseudo) SCIENCE!!! Youtube link

Or this guy, with a death touch. That works great on his students. Doesn't do shit to reporters or bystanders. Youtube link

QUOTE (beniowa @ Apr 29 2009, 14.37)

I saw this thread yesterday morning, but didn't have time to post. By the time I got home it had turned into a giant Waving-My-Dick Fu tournament.

Only to people who didn't actually read it.

QUOTE (aghrivaine @ Apr 29 2009, 16.45)

This is one of the best threads ever. And you know what? It's a little embarrassing because I'm sure as a young sprout I said exactly this kind of crap about Aikido. It's odd that young men are so given to posturing over martial arts bad-assedness.

I wish I had every minute I ever spent training to hurt other people back, and instead had learned to say, cook or paint or sculpt or build houses.

This is where my 'read the fucking thread' comment comes in. Because noone's fucking posturing over how badass their martial arts are. And only people who haven't read a fucking thing (yet still feel the need to add snarky comments) would think they were. This thread has been 90% asking the question "How can you learn to fight without fighting?" 10% "No you don't get magical powers from kung fu" There is no 'My kung fu is tougher than yours', 'I could kick your ass', or any other silly internet posturing that several dipshits seem there is because their lazy, illiterate asses couldn't be bothered to read the thing.

QUOTE (EHK for Darwin @ Apr 29 2009, 14.46)

Only to people who didn't actually read it.

I'm agree with EHK. This thread hasn't been so much about people arguing over whose art was more uber or deadly, but rather a dispute over the importance of sparring in martial arts.

Though, I'll go ahead and use this time to admit I've been a stupid and arrogant - at least to some degree or another. (Just because my school chooses not to spar, doesn't mean we can't spar, that much I've come to realize, though my pride kept me from admitting it. Though, I'll still stick with the art because it appeals to me for reasons other than pure fighting prowess.) To those I've offended, I apologize, and hopefully I'll learn not to repeat the same mistakes I've made here.

As for the chi thing, hell if I know what chi is, or what that was I felt during that class and afterwards. Perhaps it was due to increased blood flow to the hand, it somehow made it more receptive? (Hands were flushed with several white dots on the palm.) Like I said, I was never interested in biology/chemistry, so my knowledge in that field is lacking. But, I think there was some misunderstanding. The things EHK linked earlier about people using chi to send others flying without touching them, that I also have a hard time swallowing. I've heard the mythos about that kind of thing before, but that kind of thing is alittle...fantastic. Until I see it, (and experience it,) I won't believe it.

I think a lot of people in this thread (not to mention the board, or the internet in its entirety) could learn a lot from CA.

I think he's just made it clear by deed instead of word that he is indeed (pun!) humble. How many times have you seen EHK or Mormont apologise, admit to arrogance and openly change their stance on something?

Commendable.