QUOTE (Ultra Maximus @ May 19 2005, 02.21)

The two things that killed it for me was the "she just loss the will to live" line and the low budget "NO!" by Franken-Vader.

SPOILERS!!!

Those two really did piss me off as well. And very nearly ruined the film. That sort of clumsiness for what should be the films emotional heart is intolerable. Lucas needs to learn to show, not tell.

I get that Padme dying was a self-fulfilling prophecy. (aka, it was Anakin's betrayal that sapped her will to live). I get that Anakin invented his own tragedy from which he was not able to see or pull himself from. But I don't need some random fucking droid bludgeoning me over the head with it. That was just bush league, and a stupid line to boot. They should have stopped it with 'There's nothing medically wrong with her'...and moved on.

Personally, I think it once more displays Lucas's contempt for the audience. He probably figured we wouldn't get it and decided to shove it down our throat. I think its insulting to the intelligence of anyone who is over 5.

And seeing Vader in full suit was awesome...but very nearly ruined by his blubbering, wailing NOOOOOOOOO!!

They could have made him much more badass, menacing, and less like a little pussy by changing the dialogue and lettings his seethe without flailing arms and wimpy screams.

ACTING:

Otherwise, I did enjoy alot of the film. Hayden was servicable in most scenes, though he was clearly out of his league when around better actors. (Ian McDiarmend and Ewan McGregor). Scenes between him and Portman were only slightly less painful, stilted, and badly written as Clones. We needed some chemistry, some longing and some loss between them for this film to work...once more, they failed. Its hard to get emotionally vested in much of the rest of the film if they can't make us care.

Since they obviously couldn't hold up their end, they should have played up the struggle between two mentors/father figures angle with Obi-wan and the Palpatine a little more. I felt hints of it, but they needed more.

Emperor was the best actor of the film, Obi-wan was good as always, but rarely great.

Padme had her moments, but few and far between they were. Otherwise, she was pretty terrible. Yoda...was Yoda...though his reverse speech got irritating after a while.

And we know Sam Jackson is a much better actor than this. He was fairly bad.

ACTION:

General Grievous...I know some 'Clone Wars' lovers swear by him, but he seemed little more than an excuse to have a lightsabre battle...and the film has enough of them. And their little battle was kind of anti-climactic.

Lucas still has not surpassed his Episode 1 duel. Probably the best action piece in the whole trilogy. Though the Obi-wan/Anakin one was enjoyable to watch, it was too drawn out.

Yoda and the Emperor was enjoyable, especially when they tore up the Senate Chamber. Kind of think Yoda gave up too easily.

And the Emperor did kick ass, but I thought his fight with Mace was almost dull.

WHAT I LIKED:

Some of the more subtle parallels that Lucas put in. The emperor's reasoning for telling Anakin to kill Dooku was almost identical to Windu's justification for killing the emperor rather than having him stand trial. Sith and Jedi both will effectively murder if they feel its necessary and for the 'greater good'. I don't think this was lost on Anakin when he made his choice during Windu/Empies duel.

The seduction of Anakin was done well. Playing to his ego and his fears. Although I bought his ego much more than I did his love or devotion to Padme.

I think they should have played up the flaws of the Jedi a little better. His loved one is destined to die and Yoda's advice is 'Let go and learn to detach yourself, death is a part of life???' WTF? I probably would have turned too.

I think Anakin should have thrown this in Obi-wan's face when he declared Anakin a traitor. Something like this:

"A Traitor? Your order seeks to overthrow the government, and I'm the traitor? My wife dies and Yoda says 'just let go' and I'm the traitor? Where do you get off dictating from on high when the government is good, when it is bad? Where do you get this arrogance to dictate what is best for billions? Noone elected you. Noone voted the Jedi order in to govern. We're supposed to simply follow blindly and trust that they'll give up power when things are settled down? You call Palpatine evil, but you seek to do just what he does through similar means."

Ok, maybe not this exact speech. (I'm not a screen writer after all), but elements of this justified indignation. Palpatine sought to undermine democracy for his own greed and lust for power. The Jedi Order sought to entirely destroy democracy until they could put a better one in its place. Sure their motives are less selfish, but do you think anyone else cares about that? Do the trillions of people in the galaxy really want to be lead by a bunch of elitist monks whose sole claim to authority is being born with the right genes and waving shiny sticks?

That paralell was another strength of the film, that the Jedi in their own arrogance presumed to be rulers (if only temporary, so they claim) of the galaxy...and that the people should follow. While we know of course that the emperor is evil and manufactured everything for his own greed and lust, their justifications were still too similar to ignore. I think they should have played this up more as well. A 'You're no different from I' line or two would have been nice.

You can definately see a bit of populism vs. ivory tower intellectualism there. And I can definately see why the systems went along with the emperor rather than the Jedi. Do you really want a bunch of self important monks dictating the course of the galaxy via their self imposed theocracy? Make no mistake, the Jedi are an exclusive cult, membership only by birth, with a dogmatic religion that dictates behavior and thinking.

CONCLUSION:

All around I liked it, but like many of Lucas's works...too many missed opportunities. Better dialogue and deliver at certain points could have raised the emotional impact of the film tenfold. Avoiding silly mistakes (NOOOO and 'Will to live) would ensure that parts of the film are not cheapened.

And truly examining the Jedi more closely could have made with saga much less black and white. Who are the Jedi to decide who rules and who doesn't? Whats good and whats evil? I wanted those questions asked more directly.

I'm gonna sound off with others on the 'No excuse for shit acting and dialogue' bandwagon. So the OT had some bad lines and terrible acting? Noone denies that. But there were very few moments in the OT that had you cringing and shaking your head at how utterly bad it is...the new trilogy is loaded with those moments.

The Old Trilogy also had the main cast surrounded by some damned talented actors throughout most of it. Tarkin and Obi-wan were played by some old British pros. Not a bad line uttered between the two and everyone they delivered was strong and convincing. Leia pulled off the aristocrat in the first one and was convincing displaying the full array of required emotions in the second. Her chemistry with Ford felt real, their lines had passion, their banter was enjoyable and occasionally witty. And Ford? He made the entire film. The cocky pirate who reminds us all that there's more to this universe than clean cut good and evil.

There were some bad lines. And some bad deliveries. (Most of those awful deliveries being Lukes). But nowhere near as often or near as bad as in the New Trilogy. There's mildly irritating, but excusable...than there's simply godawful.

Simply godawful applies every time kid Anny was on the screen, anytime Jar Jar was, any scenes between Padme and teen anakin that included dialogue...put together thats a hell of alot of the series. The worst deliveries in the OT are on par with say...Mace Windu throughout the NT. (who was bad, but not utterly terrible...and wasn't near the worst cast member in the films)

Its all a matter of scale...on one hand you have a few holes in an otherwise fine ship. On the other, you have the Titanic ripped to shreds with all hands drowning in the frozen Atlantic.

And it always amused me how 'Well the OT wasn't that great either in acting and dialogue' is somehow seen as a credible defense. Who cares how good or bad they were respectively, judged on its own merits, the NT were still godawful films. (With the exception of parts of the third one).

We're not asking for Oscar worthy performances. We're not asking for Shakespeare. (and 'well its not supposed to be shakespeare' is another laughable defense). What we is an entertaining film with passable dialogue and passable acting.

And throughout this NT...we've usually been denied both.

As for the emperor...I thought he was great up until his 'deformation', than he became a caricature. Almost laughably maniacal and extremely over the top. (We're talking Nicholson's Joker over the top, except they weren't exactly going for that in this film...at least I hope not)

Anakin's turn was too rushed. All the sudden he's Darth Vader with no real Sith initiation?

It might as well have been -

A: "So you're the Sith Lord?"

P: "Yes"

A: "Okay, I'll join you."

P: "You'll be known as Darth Vader"

A: "Sounds good, so I have to act evil now?"

P: "It'll help...and you have to kill all your friends."

A: "I can handle that."

That might be just how "turning to the Dark Side" works, but I think it sucks.

I agree that it was far too quick as well. The seduction leading up to it was handled very well and the point of no return was believable and convincing, but he simply embraced it all far too quickly after that. I'd have liked to see a slower decay rather than 'troubled youth to babykiller' in 10 seconds.

And time for that subtle decline could have been found by completely removing Grievous from the film. He was unnecessary.

One thing I liked, and what Lucas might actually have done accidentally, is how subtle the handling of the Jedi was. I think they came off barely better than the Emperor: certainly they were very arrogant and blind, to assume that balancing the force = the destruction of the Sith. They simply couldn't see it was they who'd tipped the balance, and now they get what's coming to them. (or I'm reading too much into it, but I think thats one reasonable interpretation).

I think this is all ruined by the novels though, in which Luke starts a new jedi academy exactly like the old one. It seemed to me that the lesson of all the films was supposed to be that the Sith were one extreme, totally giving yourself over to your passions, but the old Jedi approach didn't work either...trying to close yourself off from your feelings just lets them fester, and without compassion, even a Jedi is nothing. Obi-Wan tells Luke in VI that he will have to destroy Vader, but Luke actually surpassess and in some ways rejects the teachings of the Jedi by finding it in his heart to save his father instead.

down here, people laughed almost every time R2D2 was on screen. it almost seems like he was there for comic relief.

The crowd went nuts when R2-D2 did anything here.

And it seemed that every little move Yoda made warranted a applause.

yeah, that happened here too. especially when he said "your ass hand to you, I will."

Just watched one of the gazillion starwars documentaries on TV at the moment.

But at the end Lucas mentioned what the future of starwars will be.

1. Make a 3d version of the clone wars.
2. Make a live action series depiciting the stories of minor characters in the starwars universe.

I find that kinda worrying. Why can't he leave starwars alone just for a little while.

Here's that Jar Jar crap I was talking about (it was in the other thread):

Link.

When pressed for details about the fates of favorite and not-so-favorite characters, Lucas had this to say - first about Han Solo and Leia: "Han and Leia probably did get married. They settled down. She became a senator, and they got a nice little house with a white picket fence. Han Solo is out there cooking burgers on the grill."

And about Jar-Jar Binks: "He goes back to Naboo and he's a representative. He probably stays on the council, he's probably in the senate, because it becomes completely worthless. Senators are just for show, which they talk about in Episode IV. Actually, in Episode IV they get disbanded, so Jar Jar probably goes home to his wife and kids."

Okay, so enough talk about Jar-Jar having kids.....

QUOTE (SAJse @ May 18 2005, 11.37)

Han and Leia did get married.

What a smartass answer. His arrogance knows no bounds, me thinks.

That was in the novels, not movies, which are the official cannon.

Which canon? The one where the Force is based on your mitichlorian count or the one where the Force is a mystical energy field that surrounds all living things?

Is it the one where Obi-Wan never owned any droids or the one where he knew R2-D2 (at least they were in the first movie together a lot)?

I don't see how any one Star Wars canon can be official when it all contradicts itself.

Lucas invented Star Wars.

This is a rant, you have been warned. Somebody said this...

QUOTE (crowden @ May 18 2005, 11.42)

What a smartass answer. His arrogance knows no bounds, me thinks.

His arrogance... no bounds... Here's what a lot of Star Wars fans have difficulty comprehending. IT'S HIS FUCKING FRANCHISE! IT'S HIS FUCKING MYTHOS. IT'S HIS FUCKING IDEA. IN SHORT HE CAN DO WHATEVER THE FUCK HE WANTS.

Now, I'm not saying you have to like it. By all means disagree with "The Noooo!" Jar-Jar and anything else. But the moment, the very second, a thought along the lines of 'how DARE he...' or anything else on that vibe... BOOM! DO ONE YOU RETARDED NERF HERDER! It's his franchise...

If he wanted, he could have had all the characters suddenly make friends, set up a restaurant at the end of the universe and allowed Yoda to become a children's entertainer with the Galaxies oddest pinyata trick.

Okay, extreme/humerous suggestion, but in this bizarre hypothetical scenario... Complain you can. Chastise his from daring to destroy 'The' franchise... YOU CANNOT.

It's not 'The' franchise, it never has and never will be... it's HIS franchise. If I invented Star Wars, and somebody didn't like what I was doing, cool. If someone dared tell me me what to do with my fucking idea as if it wasn't my own! Quite frankly, I'd take turning to the dark side one step further and hand your arse back to any relatives I care to keep alive while my wrath ensues.

This rant isn't aimed at anyone in particular, not even the originator of my quoted quote. It's a general pointer, a reminder, something for you to bear in mind IF you are or know one of these 'how dare he' types. HE CAN DO WHATEVER THE FUCK HE WANTS. YOU DON'T LIKE IT, INVENT YOUR OWN FRANCHISE.

We have bought into his dream at some point in our lives. If the dream changes for better or worse, its still HIS dream. You don't own it, or have any rights to it, you can like it, or not like it, but you cannot claim betrayal, ownership or anything else. Viva Lucas, and Viva his dream, which I am happy to continue buying into, whatever the consequences. Why? Because the parts of Star Wars that I DO OWN are what I feel in my heart and head. They're mine, inspired by him, but mine to keep. And no film good or bad can take or change them. So, keep your happy/unhappy thoughts as your own, but don't DARE think you own any piece of Star Wars ever.

Or I will break you.

Eh...sure its his franchise. He invented it and all. But that doesn't mean he's fucking it up any less. If I owned a car and replaced the tires with bycicle wheels...I'm still fucking it up. Granted I have the right to do that, but everyone else also has the right (and is quite justified in saying) to say "what the fuck are you doing to a perfectly good car you stupid little dipshit?"

And if this was a internationally known and beloved car, even if I built that car from scratch, it'd be understandable if alot of people were sincerely pissed off and wondered 'how dare I ruin a national icon?'

Because this is Lucas's invention, but it stoped being his alone the moment it entered the global consciousness. Star Wars has become a big part of millions of lives. People have alot of memories and emotions vested in 'his' franchise. It may not be fair, but he is somewhat accountable...not to fangeeks individually, but to the people for whom Star Wars does mean alot to not arbitrarily piss all over their memories.

So he has the right to do what he does, sure...but he's still wrong.

I'd personally like to see all future Star Wars ventures taken almost completely out of Lucas's hands. He's lost it. Everyone knows it. He can't write or direct a film to save his life. He does little more than discredit his former genius by continuing. He's a liability to himself and his creation. The man needs to go.

QUOTE (EnlightenmentHK @ May 22 2005, 00.58)

Granted I have the right to do that, but everyone else also has the right (and is quite justified in saying) to say "what the fuck are you doing to a perfectly good car you stupid little dipshit?"

Yeah, I said that. You do have the right to be pissed off.
But.
No. You don't have the right to say/think 'how dare he?' He may dare do whatever the fuck he wants. It's his property. You can be upset yes. But claim ownership...

And to say the man needs to go. Quite frankly Enlightenment I've thought you were an arse before, but I've never said owt. But to say 'the man needs to go.' Fuck You. May Lucas continue driving the franchise into the ground should he choose to do so. It's his. Move it, or lose it. You can't usurp it, its not yours.

Be careful where you draw the lien between being pissed off and claiming more authority than THE CREATOR himself.

(Anyone else see any religious parallels here?)

QUOTE (EnlightenmentHK @ May 22 2005, 00.58)

I'd personally like to see all future Star Wars ventures taken almost completely out of Lucas's hands. He's lost it. Everyone knows it. He can't write or direct a film to save his life. He does little more than discredit his former genius by continuing. He's a liability to himself and his creation. The man needs to go.

I assure you that whatever he "lost" prior to Episode 1, he regained in full and more by Episode 3. Everyone agrees that the acting, writing, directing, EVERYTHING improved vastly between eps 1 and 3. He's getting better, and if he made more movies, he would continue to get better.

In a poll at theforce.net, people were asked to rank Sith among all the Star Wars movies. 30% said it was the best of all six. Another 29% said it was only second best. Like 24% said it was third best. After that, the numbers get fuzzy in my memory, but the point is, 83% of Star Wars fans agree that Sith is better than at least one of the Old Trilogy, and 30% say it's better than all of the Old Trilogy.

Let's extend the pattern. If Episode I < Episode 2 < Episode 3, where would Episodes 7-9 fall? Do you have ANY idea how mind-fuckingly amazing Episode 9 could be if Lucas keeps getting better? Are you telling me you DON'T want to see that?

QUOTE (Lockimus Prime @ May 22 2005, 11.25)

I assure you that whatever he "lost" prior to Episode 1, he regained in full and more by Episode 3. Everyone agrees that the acting, writing, directing, EVERYTHING improved vastly between eps 1 and 3. He's getting better, and if he made more movies, he would continue to get better.

I'll agree with this. Everything did improve. But it doesn't help that he looked like Ed Wood's lovechild in the first two films. He had to improve, quite frankly, cause it couldn't get much worse. So compared to himself, sure things got better. Compared to real film-makers and real films? He still blows.

There is not an A-list director in the world with the resources and power he had, who would let some of the scenes he made get to the final print. There is not a quality screen-writer in the world who would let some of the godawful dialogue he had us endure get by the screening process.

Force.net Poll:

Ummm...so what? You're telling me that at the climax of years of hype and building excitement that the people most emotionally invested and devoted to the franchise would like the newest and last film best? Wow...that proves about nothing. Give it time for the hype to wear off and re-poll. And remember while you're at it, that alot of people liked Armageddon too.

Personally, I think alot of people like these works more because they want to like it...not because its actually good. Its Star Wars. THE LAST Star Wars film. If they don't embrace it, than all that time they spent anticipating, discussing, diasecting the franchise for years...might almost seem wasted.

And I think that because many of these people are predispositioned to like it no matter what, they're more willing to forgive film-making atrocities from Lucas than they would from any other director. Godawful acting and laughable dialogue would see any other director roasted over an open firepit, but not Lucas. That was never Lucas's strength, so we excuse it. Contrived plot developments, pointless characters, needless additions, bad plotting and pacing...but Hey, its Lucas...we'll forgive that. I think people are much more willing to forgive from this man what would be intolerable from any REAL film-maker.

Lucas getting better:

At his current rate of 'improvement' he'll have the talent to make respectable commercials in about 10 years.

QUOTE (The Defiant @ May 22 2005, 10.52)

Blurb

Its his creation, but Star Wars has become important to alot more people than just him. There's some built in obligation not to fuck around, fair or not, when something of yours becomes essential to so many other people. Lucas has repeatedly proven himself utterly incapable of living up to that obligation.

Better, more talented people should come in and give the world the Star Wars it really wants and deserves. We should not have to survive on the half-assed antics of a talentless hack and his 5 year old's grasp of what's quality acting, writing, plot development, and humor.

It was his, but Star Wars is bigger than him now. He has proven he's incapable of handling it. So if he had any decency at all, he'd allow others to take over from here.

QUOTE (EnlightenmentHK @ May 22 2005, 21.16)

It was his, but Star Wars is bigger than him now. He has proven he's incapable of handling it. So if he had any decency at all, he'd allow others to take over from here.

What you are describing here is THEFT. Plain and simple.

If he GAVE it to us, 100% no strings attached then that is cool. And he has with the Expanded Universe, but not the films. They are his. And he did make an attempt to fulfill his 'repsonsibility' to make somehting good; but he's ultimately, apparently, failed.

But it wasn't a task/responsibility given to him, he created the task himself. Therefore you or anyone else are not and never will be in a position to 'take' it from him. You were never in the "teacher's" position, you wer enever in his equation so how can you judge him on a test/task of his own invention? So yeah, be upset, but if you wanna do better the only legit way you can do it is make your own franchise as big and as epic.

I'm not concerned with personal opinions as too how good/bad Lucas is (its fairly obvious he's fairly awful) but from PRESUMPTUOUS MORONS who think they own Star Wars and can take it away FROM THE OWNER.

Theft. Bad.
Gift. Good.

Don't be a thief. Be good children, and you may get a gift.

I think the people who hate the new trilogy are the same ones screaming for Don's TF movie to be just like the cartoon. They want the new stuff to make them feel the way they did when they saw the original as a kid. And when it inevitably does not, they are angry and upset.