HBO needs a major flagship drama. Something that unquestionably sets them apart and says 'This is fucking HBO bitch, you can't touch this shit'. Something that reminds people why they have HBO instead of Showtime (or nothing). They haven't had that show since the Wire ended. True Blood, from everything I've seen and heard, is not that show. (I understand that the ratings of shows like Rome and The Wire weren't great, but they were, the Wire especially, buzz worthy shows that sell DVD's and reap critical acclaim, which is as important to HBO's business model as ratings are)

I have no idea if aSoIaF can be that show. But in their present position (some decent half hour comedies and True Blood/Big Love the only hour long drama's), they need another major drama. And I think that bodes well for the possibility of aSoIaF.

Right now there is nothing HBO has that's on par with Dexter or Weeds. Even with their recent aversion to MASSIVE budgets, that's a reality they certainly want to change quickly. Curious what other options they're holding to see where Martin falls in the rat race. And given the cheesy, campy approach they seem to be taking with Legend of the Seeker (goodkind), I hope that won't be looked to as any sort of indicator of aSoIaF's potential success.

QUOTE (Piper @ Sep 10 2008, 13.21)

Random thought, sorry if this has been thought of before:

HBO utilizes that wonderful device known as "on demand" where you can watch episodes anytime you want. But sometimes they put non-episode materials on: I think on Entourage they put the trailer for the Vinny Chase movie "Medellin" on demand.

Could HBO do something like this to replicate the "Appendixes" in the books? You watch a 45-90 second clip on "The Lannisters" showing cool shots of Tywin being a badass, Jaime being a badass, etc, while a voice over names the characters, tells a little blurb on the family history like you find in the back of the books?

Or would pretty much any sort of "Who's Who?" feature be done online?

You know, assuming this thing goes forward (knocks on wood).

They'll probably supply a 'Who's who' feature online, that's done for alot of shows. But a full appendix of any sort is most likely unnecessary. A TV show is not gonna have near the cast as a book. An author is free to add all the characters they like, but a show actually has to pay for each speaking role, so they're gonna limit it. Also, there's simply less time with a TV series and too many characters can burden a screen narrative much easier than a book one. I suspect (if they do make it) a bunch of roles to be both eliminated and combined.

What scenes that occur "off screen" will appear "on screen"?

My main concern is that battles are pretty damned expensive. Rome was an incredibly pricey show and while several battles were said to occur, they only really bothered showing one. I really don't think we can expect to see all of these things presented on screen. I expect to see a glimpse of the Trident battle, probably in a prologue Fellowship of the Ring style, to start the series and maybe one more battle in the first season. (Or perhaps they can give us mere glimpses and save all the big battle budget for a second season Kingslanding assault.)

Location

Czech Republic was my first instinct. Or someplace else with a variety of old, intact architecture that isn't enormously expensive.

QUOTE (Rinso @ Nov 12 2008, 13.34)

I just don't see a way for ASoIaF to be so expensive. There is no need for super-costly stunts or special effects or whatever. In the whole first book there are only two major battles involving more than 10-15 men and one of them, the Whispering Wood, can be presented very well with very less thanks to the way it's portrayed in the book. There is no need for very much CGI work too - there is, what, the Others in the pilot, never to be seen again until the third season (hopefully, of course), the direwolves of the Starks for which they can even use real animals or puppets with just a bit CGI augmentation, the newborn dragons of Dany at the very final episode who, just like the Others, will have a bigger role only in the eventual continuation of the series, the Wall and maybe a bit CGI for the cities and the castles in more landscape-ish views of them. The most work will go for sets and costumes, which I don't think is so expensive. I just don't see a way for it to cost a sum like the 100 000 000 $ Ser Greguh mentioned for Rome.

The first season of Rome also had no significant battles actually shown on screen. The costs were the massive sets and the huge cast. Its actually pretty damned expensive creating a non (or no longer) existent world and making it look and feel authentic, let alone getting a big, ensemble cast with no weak links to populate it. HBO prides itself on big budget film quality production values. That's hard to do for a period piece of any sort and damned expensive.

QUOTE (holyte @ Nov 12 2008, 20.44)

HELLS YEAH!!

Lets just hope HBO has the good sense to pick this one along with five other sub-par series (i actually have no idea what other shows are in the running). Seriously, it's a no-brainer. ASOIAF has an established fanbase. The show will be a sure hit. And would they risk a mob of 10,000 ppl crying for blood at their headquarters?

Sadly about the only two fanbases large enough and devoted enough to matter for shit when it comes to producing a film or new show are Star Trek and LotR. Guess we can add Star Wars to that as well. And Harry Potter. Batman and Superman had long since become cultural icons and the hardcore comic reading segment of the fanbase was a TINY portion of those who actually saw X-men/Spiderman/etc. The point is, even if every person who identified themselves as a GRRM fan watch this show religiously, it'd be a small blip in ratings terms. Its not a sure hit by any stretch. And the public certainly isn't as aware of this material and setting as they are of the comic franchises listed or even Transformers for that matter. It will need significant crossover appeal cause there's simply not enough of us to keep it afloat. Not nearly.

Some things will certainly be trimmed. And by the time we get to the 3rd or 4th season of the show, presumably Dance will have long since been published, so we'll know what Dany, Jon, and others were up to during that period and they can be incorporated into it. The first book really works quite well as a self-contained season. As does the second and third with a bit of trimming, especially book 3. (it had the most effective dramatic climax sure, but it did drift a bit) I'd expect things from Dance to be mixed in with the 4th season as Feast does not have a screen friendly dramatic storyarc, misses half the characters, and whatever climax it had...just isn't on the same level of the first few books.

Also to consider would be bringing Dani over earlier. Incredibly trimming her part to someone mentioned periodically, seen a few times, but not a huge focus until they're ready to bring her. Or cutting her out almost entirely. Fact is I don't think it makes good television to devote huge chunks of screen time to a character largely disconnected from the main story and characters for 3+ seasons.

Sure an established fan base is a selling point and its better to have one than not have one, just saying that alone hardly makes the show a no-brainer. It has alot of other obstacles to overcome, not least of which is cost and the fact that historic fantasy has never been an easy sell on television. The fan base will play a factor in the decision to go forward, I just don't think its as significant a one as you might. Perhaps Brude has some insight into how effective such things are in determining what shows/films get made.

Adapting book POV structure to HBO TV series; Spoilers

If they decide to go the first Dune movie route, they won't be forgiven.

QUOTE (Shojum @ Nov 13 2008, 12.49)

Never saw the entire thing, couldn't bear it after 20 minutes, which route is that?

Having the actual thoughts of the characters said out loud and heard by the audience. Dune, to my knowledge, is the only movie that's done that for an entire film. And while perhaps an accurate portrayal of the book (the book had constant internal thought monologues), it was awful on screen.

Sounds like most of the dialog additions and some of the switches are pretty much exposition. Expository dialog seems to be one of the biggest hurdles many films and TV shows have. It almost never flows naturally, always feels awkward and out of place in an actual conversation, and its too geared towards the dumbest member of the audience. I understanding trying to get the LCD engaged, but you shouldn't have to force the other viewers to cringe through clunky and forced dialog in order to cater to the idiot. For whatever reason demanding a bit more of the viewer is an anathema and working in smooth, non-obvious exposition is a lost art.

The frustrating thing is that this is HBO. They typically don't bother clubbing the viewer over the head with the obvious. They're not afraid of more demanding shows like the Wire and Deadwood. Nor is their audience looking for the simpler fare. They can watch networks for that if they want.

On the flip side, it is a pilot. This is the introduction to a whole new world, countless characters, conflicts, and concepts. Unlike a novel you can't always take your time laying the basic foundation. Not all of it needs to be up front, but enough to know whats up and where things are going needs to be established. And its not like a modern day piece (or even some period pieces) where you already have a basic understanding of how things work. So who knows.

Reading this sub-forum has unfortunately killed alot of my hopes that this series will get picked up. Me sad.

QUOTE (the Blauer Dragon @ Apr 1 2009, 09.08)

My question is, how does one become a Hollywood script writer? And why does quality writing seem to be in such low demand?

How does one become a screenwriter?
In a nutshell, write some spec. screenplays, find and agent or a manager who likes your work, and they will send your script to lots of producers and then pray that either they buy your script, they get the studio to buy it for them or the studio like your writing enough to hire you to do rewrites on a project they already own.

And why does quality writing seem to be in such low demand?
It's not, it's in high demand by creative people in the biz, but too many of the people who make the final decision on these things (the money people) don't know good writing and so they make their decisions based on who wrote something that was successful in the past - they are bean counters and make decisions based on bean counter reasoning. Since they are the ones generally in charge, the people below them start making their decisions based on what they think those people will prefer (and based on their reasoning, whatever reasoning they have). The result is an entire system that is designed to say "no" to everything, to the point it's a miracle that anything gets sold.

But, if you are so lucky to sell something for big money and especially if one of your scripts turns out to be a big hit, then anything and everything you've written in the past - no matter the quality - will get sold for big money. Nobody gets fired for buying the script from a writer whose last movie grossed $200 million, even if it is garbage. But, someone can easily get fired for buying a script from an unknown writer that then goes on to fail miserably at the box-office, even if that unknown's writing ability should mark them as the second coming of Lawrence Kasdan.

I know a story of a husband and wife who were script readers for rival studios - they had a newborn (or maybe it was a kid on the way) and couldn't afford to lose their jobs. The husband came across a script by an unknown writer he thought was amazing and felt he could risk a "Recommend" rating instead of the usual "Pass" rating on it. So he called his wife to discuss it with her first and his wife simply begged him to not do it because it wasn't worth his job. So, he ultimately "Passed" on it. This was a friend of a friend in the business.

Add to this the long development process where every studio and development exec. in the mix has to justify their jobs by giving their own script notes, many of which will get incorporated into the final script in order to appease them before it can get to the next stage and you realize that even something that starts out great can get rendered into shit by the time it is done.

Anyway, that's my most simplified description possible about this process. It's enormously frustrating and I lived in that world for too many years and saw too many very talented clients never break through and never go anywhere, while at the same time too many bad scripts by talentless hacks get bought for big money and for reasons I can never fathom even when knowing all of the above reasons I spoke of intimately. It's a maddening industry, which is why after a long time spent out of it I'm turning back to on the indie side now (hopefully), which at least has the potential to be a source of more creative freedom for the artists involved.

QUOTE (Prince of the North @ Apr 1 2009, 21.55)

Brude,

That is truly depressing! I sincerely hope you have more control on the indie side of things and wish you the best of luck. I also greatly fear for HBO's attempt to bring ASoIaF to the small screen.

I by no means have the inside industry insights that Brude does, but from my observations HBO has a habit of finding talented, motivated people with good ideas and giving them significant creative freedom to make the show they envisioned. And if their series is successful, bringing them back for another go once the first series has finished its run. Compared to most other networks, there appears to be a minimum of suit meddling from HBO and all of their show-runners tend to be deeply involved in the creation, structure, and direction of their shows.

Which is one of several reasons that everyone here breathed a collective sigh of relief and joy when aSoIaF was picked up by HBO rather than any other network. Doesn't mean it won't be screwed up, but your best odds for a good adaptation are at HBO.