I've come to terms with the fact that the show will overuse mysticism to drive the plot and/or resolve it. Fair enough. But at least be fricken consistent. When they're chastising Kara for wanting to change the direction of the entire fleet on a 'feeling', perhaps someone should have mentioned how the President hijacked half the fleet on a fricken feeling and hallucination and ended up being right. Without mentioning that (ideally Kara, belligerently, and to the President's face), the whole conflict loses credibility.

And yeah, Adama you're a tough as nails realist, don't believe in miracles...might have worked in season 1, but I'd say that you've seen more than a few of them by now. What's the big deal?

And this is the trap a show like this falls into if it begins to rely too heavily on the mystic. You can't rightly dismiss it out of hand when another character says 'you've gotta believe me!'.

QUOTE (Wouter @ Apr 5 2008, 14.32)

One also has to consider Kara's brandnew Viper. That's bound to get disbelief. Where does it come from? How did she survive the explosion of the Viper she left in?

I've got no problem with them disbelieving her, its just that with all of the shit that has happened so far (especially to the very characters that are leading the charge to doubt Kara), you'd figure they'd give it a few moments longer consideration.

Actually, I'd be perfectly fine with the direction its going now so long as SOMEONE mentioned the President's 'Governing via hallucination' phase. It seems...almost disingenuous to the audience not to. You can't simply ignore highly relevant canon because its inconvenient at the time. And its not like it necessarily changes anything. Roslin can be a complete hypocrite and still oppose Kara. What's the big deal on someone actually calling her on it? 'Hey, didn't you commit a mutiny and steal half the fleet because you had some drug induced hallucinations? And now you're trying to play all hardnosed and logical? Crazy twit!'

QUOTE (Ran @ Apr 5 2008, 17.11)

There's the fact that everyone saw Kara Thrace die in a fiery implosion, only to show up again in a brand new (old) Viper claiming she's been gone a few hours.

That's a whole new level of magical weirdness, and it's the thing that separates Roslin from Thrace. Roslin stretched the bounds of what could be believed to include prophetic warnings and whatnot. But she didn't come back from the dead under extremely mysterious circumstances before she did it.

I don't disagree that it separates them. I just want them to acknowledge Roslin's own weirdness. There's more than enough to bring an all new level of skepticism to Kara, but by not putting the shit in context, i think they're doing a disservice to the fans and the story. Its like when the nuke went off and nobody thought to ask Baltar 'WTF happened to that nuke we loaned you?' Roslin is leading the 'throw away the key' charge against Kara, someone needs to bring her (Roslin) shit up for the scenes to be buyable. Even if they still come to the same conclusions.

Otherwise it looks like the show is trying to forget that certain things happened when its convenient to the plot.

QUOTE (Mack Kilimaro @ Apr 5 2008, 18:55)

So where the hell did the Cult of Gaius Baltar come from? Are these people that I would have seen before or are they just a bunch of random, strikingly attractive women who all want to get in Baltar's pants, so much so that they don't even hold it against one of their own when they find her naked next to him? Seriously, what is up with that? It was totally surreal.

Quick Summary. After they escaped New Caprica, Baltar's new home became a Cylon base ship. Insert several episodes of boring discussions and pointless exposition between Baltar and his Cylon hosts leading up to a showdown over some mystically relevant (points the way to earth) planet between Cylons and the fleet. At some point during that showdown, Baltar is turned over to the humans.

They imprison and interrogate him. Debate whether to torture/shoot out an airlock/have him stand trial/etc. During his time in the cell he writes and smuggles out his Mein Kamph/Communist-Baltarian Manifesto and he and his words develop a cult following amongst the fleet. Basically they try to turn him into G'Kar. I didn't really buy it, but what the hell.

Anyway, after a rousing speech from Lee Adama, Baltar is found innocent at trial, and the fanatics that embraced his 'message' (we never quite know what that is, but it seemed like some variation of 'workers of the world unite') smuggle him to their little hideout and that's when the new season/episode starts.

QUOTE (Aoife @ Apr 13 2008, 02.58)

The board has affected my viewing, though - during the Starbuck scenes with Roslin, all I could think was 'well EHK should be happy now!'

Heh...I'm glad it was brought up. But it still seems quite silly to me that it wasn't brought up in the initial argument. You know, before Kara felt the need to go all Rambo. Still no mention of the mutiny. And still no mention from the other characters.

Overall I liked where the Cylon storyline was going though. I actually felt it was significant enough to deserve the main focus of this episode. Would have liked to have seen more. It was interesting and compelling...but it seemed to be missing some transition bits here and there. The plotting and decision-making that eventually led to the decision for Civil War would have been more interesting than Baltar banging yet another hottie.

Pretty good episode though.

3 pages of discussion over this? Are you guys serious? This is a non-controversy. There is Boomer. (Hottest of the hot) and than there's everyone else. Carry on.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Apr 20 2008, 15.25)

That was a main focus of the miniseries, if you weren't paying attention. Hell, it's an important thing RIGHT NOW in US politics. People aren't happy when you start using war to try and shut them out of the government and run it like a dictatorship.

And that's always been one of the main weaknesses of the show. Trying to hard, and often ham-handedly, to be relevant to present day events. Sometimes the context of the show supports those allusions, but very often it doesn't. They are not the most powerful people in the universe who just had a few thousand civilians (out of 300 million) slaughtered by fanatical terrorists. They are the last remnants of an entire species who are fleeing for their lives from genocidal butchers. They've had JUST a little more hardship to deal with and would be MUCH more inclined to accept elements of authoritarianism if it kept them safe.

There wouldn't be much soul searching on the right or wrong of Cylon torture. The only conflict would be the near riot over who gets to cut the fingers off the prisoner and who gets to disembowel them. The abortion question was very interesting, relevant, and fit the context of the show. Can a population of a few thousand reasonably sustain the freedoms they had previously been used to. (though they copped out on that one) The questions surrounding the suicide bombing resistance worked within the context of the show, since even if the attacks were necessary, you're still further depopulating an almost dead species. But some of the other shit? I have a little trouble with people clamoring for freedom and justice when they're on the run for their lives and the very existence of their species.

QUOTE (potsherds @ 3 May 2008, 15.07)

Oooooer. That was a nifty article. I wish it had been longer. I have to say, that this show's take on religion and spirituality are something I like very much, unlike a lot of people here who have bitched about it.

My problem isn't so much the inclusion of religion, but that its too often used as a writing crutch. Either to drive the plot or Deus Ex out of impossible situations. And because the producer says so, the religious 'visions' and prophecies are always proven right. You over use that shit and it just becomes really lazy writing. You no longer need creative solutions, you just wave your hands and say 'magic/god', and BOOM, problem solved. A little more ambiguity would be nice.

The 12 Cylons have been chosen by writers who have displayed a chronic inability to plan ahead or foreshadow, and an irritating tendency to make things up as they go along. 9 times out of 10 any allusion to later events that you may have seen in early episodes is either coincidence or tacked on by the writers in that particular way in order to create the appearance of consistency and foreshadowing from a previously pointless event. One thing that has been abundantly clear throughout this series is that the writers certainly DO NOT have a plan.

They probably do now, seeing how this is the last season. So they better have an idea of where they're going. But to draw any conclusions from their largely random array of Cylons is foolish and unsupportable. Those final four certainly weren't originally intended to be Cylons. And their choices were pretty much the result of a 3rd season sitdown where the producers/writers mused over the fact that they needed 5 more Cylons, so who can we pick from the cast? (because bringing in someone completely new at that point would be rather lame)

The fact is if you're looking for any consistency or grand design in most of what the show does you're in for some disappointment because they tend to pull most of it out of their collective asses when needed. As such, trying to divine the final cylon from any past events or from the current setup of the existing cylons is a process doomed to failure before you even start. You might guess right. But its going to be nothing more than a guess because the writers themselves most likely didn't know who the final Cylon was until this season. And at best, sometime late last season.

Your article fails in its first paragraph by reading a hell of alot more into the religious significance of 12 than any of the writers/producers likely ever did. RDM flat out stated he knew very little about the Mormon faith and didn't study up on it. They used 12 because the old series did and for the most basic religious allusions that any moderately educated laymen could make. 12 Zodiac symbols/12 Apostles/12 Tribes of Israel. Looking at it much beyond that and you're certainly reading more into it than the writers did. Any real significance that the number 12 has will not be as extensively thought out or consistent as that article suggests.

Also, the last supper painting may be a hint. It may also be something neat they put out without much thought. It may also be there simply to fuck with the hardcore fans. Drawing any conclusions from it is, again, quite pointless.

And the episode shit? Taking shit they said midway through the first season as foreshadowing? Dualla was barely a character at that point. I sincerely doubt they had all that shit in mind when they had Leoben utter that. There's a ton of 'hints' and foreshadowing from earlier episodes that they've all but abandoned, this could easily be another. They didn't know where they were going with the story back than and such bombshells made for good cliffhangers. Athena's (or the other one, forgot which) 'There are 8 more Cylons in the fleet'...well, we've forgotten that. I distinctively recall some vague hints that Galactica may have been allowed to escape, but no follow up on that. (although I think some people said that was simple fan speculation and no actual hints of that dropped in the show, been a while since I've seen those earlier episodes, so I can't be sure)

QUOTE (Merentha @ May 5 2008, 20.28)

I don't buy Dualla being the final Cylon simply because she hasn't been in the last few episodes. Hell, I don't remember her having any role in season 4 at all, except maybe some cameos in CIC. That's hardly a way to treat the most important character of the Cylons.

And this is what I call a useful observation using the context we've been given. And IMO quite a convincing one. She has played no role whatsoever this season. And revealing it as her now (unless her part expands substantially over a few episodes) would be some pretty weak television.

Using these 'outside observations' (for lack of a better means to explain it) and basic TV knowledge to explain the mystery is much more effective than whatever that earlier link went through. Sifting through 3 seasons of story hints and over-analysis of barely existent symbolism when the show isn't very pre-planned or that carefully designed in the first place seems like alot of wasted effort. Racetrack is a more prominent character than Dualla right now. I don't think they're gonna shift too much from standard television expectations to throw us that curve.

QUOTE (Lord of Oop North @ May 9 2008, 22.34)

Also, I still don't get the need to look at New Caprica as an allegory for Iraq. It is sort of like when people said the attack on the colonies had "obvious 9/11' parallels". Any meaning that you take from the show is mostly being created by your own mind. Beyond the fact that there is an cccupation and a resistance, the parallels are pretty superficial.

There is no 'need' for allegory, that's simply all it was. That was arguably the most transparent allusion to a modern day issue that the show has ever used and its used a bunch of them. This isn't some invention in the minds of the viewers, this is the clear and obvious intent of the writers and producers. They often try to be relevant to modern day events, sometimes even flipping the role of contemporary America and evil-doers between the colonists and cylons. Sometimes it works. Sometimes its heavy-handed and really doesn't fit the context. But its definitely there. New Caprica = Iraq is about as obvious as it gets.

As for the episode, the Cylon bits were pretty good. I was tempted to fast forward through every Roslin scene.

Or, once again, why its suddenly difficult for Cylons to operate a Raptor on their own. Couldn't they just plug their arm into the damned thing?

Artificial and contrived tension to start. Out of left fucking field plot device that had no prior mention or development. Seriously Athena, been a true colonial for a few years now, think you might have mentioned the one thing that could make the Cylons vulnerable? Such information might have been...you know...FUCKING USEFUL! The only real explanation for the Hub and having only one would seem to be lost-tech as another mentioned. Lazy writers probably won't even bother with that much exposition to make their plot point make sense.

And did everyone on the fricken Demetrius take a blood oath of silence or something? Mutiny, lost limb, and no consequences? Not even dealt with. Just one of those inconvenient past events that we'd rather you forget about now that its over. They used to wait half a season before they forgot about events that are no longer convenient to the current plot.

At least Tigh asks who shot Gaeta. Did they all fricken forget about the chick that got KILLED? No mention of the missing crew member?

And what the fuck is a speech about mortality from the DESTROYER OF A FUCKING SPECIES supposed to convince me of? And for a Council that bitches endlessly about some rather asinine shit, you'd think they might have some comments for the genocidal bitch. Like how we're supposed to trust a genocidal bitch? Or how her conscience is doing with the blood of billions on it? Short memories or something?

Patriotism = compliance = BSG = Bush, someone else covered it. We get it. Move the fuck on.

About the only thing good in this episode was Gaeta's singing. The rest I shit on quite happily.

QUOTE (TrackerNeil @ May 19 2008, 14.14)

I think that the lack of consequences for the Demetrius crew is perfectly in line with Adama's character, and with the necessities of circumstance. As we know, Adama rarely holds his crew responsible for their actions.

I have no problem (well I do, but at least they're consistent) with them continuing to play Adama as the forgiving sap. Its just that they don't even address that shit in this episode. Usually they have Adama frowning and talking tough for half the episode before he inevitably gives in. Here there was nothing. It was just ignored.

QUOTE (Shryke @ May 19 2008, 14.31)

They were trying to doublecross her the minute she was out of the room. They don't need to buy any of the shit she spouted. The deal is sweet for them, and they know it.

The deal is sweet. Than have the GB (Genocidal Bitch) sell it on those terms. Don't give a worthless, sappy speech about mortality that makes no sense except in a TV universe where such nonsense is common and always converts the masses. (I fucking hate most TV/film speeches. They're almost always drivel and they almost always work. Cept for the 'call to arms/kill the enemies/go to war' speeches. Those are usually ok) GB should have just laid out the advantages frankly and directly and called it a day. 'I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but how can you pass this up?' sort of thing.

QUOTE (Shryke @ May 19 2008, 14.31)

Roslin just did that to try and calm the Quorum down.

If I was in the Quorum, that would be the moment I and any other sane person would start raising hell. Seriously, who could pass up the opportunity to throw their crimes back in their faces? Especially a group that petty.

QUOTE (lotuspixie @ May 19 2008, 22.28)

I enjoy a story being told, and enjoy watching characters exist and go about their daily lives in the universe created by the writers. why does everything have be a piece of the puzzle?

It doesn't necessarily. But the fact is most of the stand alone's are godawful even on their own terms. And they exist to cater to an audience that just ain't there. BSG doesn't have the casual viewer as much as other shows. They've got the devoted fanbase that will be there every episode (so long as the show remains good) and the rest make up a minority. Continue to please the devotees and the ratings will remain high enough to sustain and succeed. Start annoying them with pointless bullshit and they'll abandon it.

QUOTE (Shryke @ May 20 2008, 13.27)

YOU don't have to buy the reasoning. You just have to buy that the character buys her own reasoning. I'm sure Roslin thinks it's mostly shit, but why say so to her face? It gains you nothing, and potentially loses you a very sweet deal.

Just what the hell was her reasoning though? In my mind that speech ranks up there with the Ms. Teen America abomination as one of the dumbest things to ever pass through human (or cylon) lips. Why the hell should the governing council of a species you nearly exterminated give a shit about your personal growth? Why would even a semi-nuts religious fanatic believe that would be persuasive?

And what was the Council's reasoning in remaining silent before, during, and after...something they absolutely never do. If I were confronted with such idiocy from a mass murderer seeking my aid, you'd bet there'd be a fricken reaction.

I don't buy the internal 'show' explanations. This is bad writing, nothing more. TV speeches that make no points, serve no purpose, yet still succeed in convincing others are an awful cliche that the medium should be permanently barred from using. Oddly enough, BSG was one of the few shows able to produce one of those speeches that actually made a valid point and could conceivably have worked. (Boy Adama: 'We're not a government, we're a gang'...or something like that)

QUOTE (Shryke @ May 20 2008, 14.58)

It's not just for our benefit. It's perfectly consistent with their character.

Which doesn't stop it from being perfectly stupid. Nor does it make the Council reaction any less baffling. I just wish that writers would sit down and ask themselves 'how would this character (or if they're not developed, how would an ordinary person) react in this situation?' And if the 'must advance this plot point' reaction doesn't fit, than they should find a way to make it fit. And if that's not possible, chuck the damned plotline and go another way. I'm sick of this 'round peg in the square hole', and 'when all else fails, use magic' style of writing.

QUOTE (TrackerNeil @ May 20 2008, 14.55)

Her reasoning was not that the humans deserved better, but that the Cylons shouldn't sink to that level. A race that had committed genocide, conducted scientific experiments on sentient creatures, tried to enslave a refugee people they'd promised to leave alone has this idea that they hold the moral high ground. Although I think that's downright crazy, it's pretty consistent with Cylon thinking.

Except I don't think that's the message RDM wants us to take away from that. Given his past heavy-handedness, I suspect the intended message is 'hey look, the Cylons backed off of betrayal while humans didn't. They're not so different from us, eh? Maybe we're worse, EH!?' He's been shooting for moral ambiguity all the damned time whether it fits the context or not. I also doubt he intended that speech to be the irrelevant ramblings of a religious fanatic, but rather a thoughtful and moving speech that won over the council and audience alike. All of this 'in character' crap (whether true or not) seems little more than fan rationalization. Yeah it might make SLIGHT sense in that context, but I doubt that's what they were shooting for.

It would simply be bad television for them to make it Dualla at this point. She's been entirely non-existent this entire season. I think the chick that died on the cylon baseship has had more lines this season. It'd feel like a copout more than anything.

The episode largely sucked because it made very little sense.

The President thing. Yeah, its pretty clear they're gonna shoe-horn Lee in some way, but is he really the only guy on the fleet that the Quorum won't castrate and the Admiral will work with? Adama hated Zarek cause he's Zarek, but I'm sure there's at least one of those 47 that he'd find suitable. And why would the Quorum find Lee acceptable? They don't really know him. They don't know the extent of his relationship with Commander Adama. What they do know is he's the guy son. And Commander Adama running the military with Baby Adama as President looks pretty damned much like a military dictatorship to anyone who doesn't know the full context. (which presumably the Quorum and their constituents don't) For all their whining about being dictated to and cut out of the loop, why would they accept an Adama hereditary monarchy?

The Commander Adama thing. WTF? Your President and a fair chunk of your military just disappeared...and its suddenly a foolish thing to keep looking for them? Over 3.5 seasons leaders in this show have risked alot more for a hell of alot less with noone questioning them. How is this any different? How is this a sign of Adama's clouded judgment? Why are some of the idiots who made even dumber decisions that panned out now chiming in to chastise his judgment? This is fucking stupid. Sit around for a while. Noone knows the way to earth anyway, so its not like you're losing time. You can jump out the moment Cylons arrive, so that's not a big deal. And if you're really worried, take one jump away, leave some kind of marker....but not the fricken commander.

Saul Tigh is what...a year or three removed from his disastrous and short reign as commander? And he spent part of that time trying to slaughter innocent humans in marketplaces. How is he A: Fit for command and B: a better candidate than even 'judgment clouded' Adama?

And the cat shit....you've got to be fucking kidding me. I hope RDM apologizes during the podcast and admits that 'yeah, we realized this episode was a bit mundane and dialog heavy, so we pulled something out of our ass just to invent some tension near the end. Hope you like it.'