QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 02 2005, 08.54)

Let's move this up a notch. "Hitler found alive and well but dying of old age. Let's pray".

Why praying for evil sadistic bastard?

SAJse was trying to see how far I stand by respecting a person's right to die with dignity no matter what kind of a person they are. The fact is though that noone will ever do anything cause me to not maintain that respect, regardless of what I might think of the person! Anything less and a person crosses the line from being civilised to being scum, no matter how you try to spin it!

Then in your eyes God must be scum because he allowed severe punishments like stoning which are specifically designed to remove dignity and instill a fear of commiting crime. Yes, that wouldn't happen in his perfect world but he allowed it because the times required it.

We are still not in his perfect world and times are bad. Therefore constructive criticism is a DUTY of anyone who calls themselves Christian.

And like I said above, that criticism can come at ANY time. Even during death.

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 02 2005, 08.31)

Whatever shred of respect I had for you is now gone!

Bow, you've never had the slightlest respect for me or my views.

You've used this thread as an excuse to vehemently attack people you don't like.

Celebrating the Pope's life by attacking everyne who expresses a differing view of you as "SCUM" just shows what a lack of respect you have for people with differing views.

SAJse's point is valid, and one I considered bringing up myself earlier. If my father was dying and I posted asking people for sympathy, it'd be nice to get it.

If, however, you subsequently found out that my father was a white supremicist, would I still expect the sympathy from people whatever their beliefs, or people to not condone his actions stringing up blacks during the 50s BECAUSE he was at death's door, I'd be wishing and hoping.

If people strongly disagree with the politics or religion of someone it doesn't matter whether they're alive, dead, dying or risen again, they are still going to disagree and they will still have theiropinions whether it's considered a "respectful" time to talk about them or not.

I don't believe in censorship.

Let me be completely frank with this whole situation....

I believe there is a God.

I do NOT believe in a single person being in contact with said God...meaning the pope, cardinals, priests and so on...

To me the church is a money laundering scheme out for money...basically priests, cardinals and other such religious persona that get paid for their services. It's basically a job in which they pray, and people go to watch and pray with, and pay out of pocket to do so.

What's stopping people from praying at home?

I don't want to get into a religious conflict regarding all this bullshit, but it seems we HAVE indeed hit a nerve with a number of people regarding this topic.

I also don't believe in the Bible. That is my belief and no one can touch it.

BUT...I do believe in God.

Sadly the Pope has passed away at 2:37 EST. Our thoughts and prayers go to him. I hope that his legacy of reaching out to and accepting other cultures is carried on by the following Pope and all throughout the world.

Sorry to hear that, may he rest in peace.

I hope his legacy is not just followed but greatly expanded on by the new Pope.

God bless his humble soul.

Pope John Paul II will always be remembered as a fearless champion for human dignity.

He was an inspiration to everyone.

Pope Idol starts next Saturday.

Hey, he's a fellow LFC fanboy. He'll get it.

Now he's resting and he'll wake up to judgement like the rest of poor sods. I just hope he was sincere as he seemed to be.

And I DO mean that sincerely.

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 02 2005, 10.06)

Then in your eyes God must be scum because he allowed severe punishments like stoning which are specifically designed to remove dignity and instill a fear of commiting crime. Yes, that wouldn't happen in his perfect world but he allowed it because the times required it.

God invented stoning did he? I think you'll find that was the work of human beings.

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 02 2005, 10.06)

We are still not in his perfect world and times are bad. Therefore constructive criticism is a DUTY of anyone who calls themselves Christian.

And like I said above, that criticism can come at ANY time. Even during death.

No actually the DUTY of a Christian is to try to act with compassion and love, which sometimes means getting your hands dirty and defending a guy who's being kicked when he's down! Besides, I wasn't aware that the world was going to end tomorrow if that wasn't discussed right then and there!

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 02 2005, 17.58)

God invented stoning did he? I think you'll find that was the work of human beings.

I don't deny that but God condoned it....

10 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 He shall surely be >>stoned<< or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain."

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 02 2005, 17.58)

No actually the DUTY of a Christian is to try to act with compassion and love, which sometimes means getting your hands dirty and defending a guy who's being kicked when he's down! Besides, I wasn't aware that the world was going to end tomorrow if that wasn't discussed right then and there!

"kicked when he's down" is your opinion only. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. You shouldn't take it so personally.

L.Ninio has made some nastyass retarded comments but even HE "gets it".

You're not defending a traditional guy who got kicked when he's down. You're defending a guy who many people have problems with. SOME MAJOR PROBLEMS.

Biggest point...everyone has their own beliefs...and thier own opinions.

Let us move on, shall we?

This was never about beliefs or opinions; it was about respect and common decency! The fact is that if certain board members had a basic level of common decency, this thing never would have flared up to begin with! As Bluestreak said, just because something can be said, doesn't necessarily mean it should. Eitherway, the comments which have been made were either wrongly timed or just wrong period! Either way it shows a complete lack of common decency!

People can argue otherwaise, but ultimately, nothing will change that fact! The next process of electing a pope will happen in the next 2-3 weeks, so if someone has views on how the new pope or the church should be, the time for that issue is then! There's an old saying- "You don't speak ill of the dead.". Maybe it might be an idea for some people here to look at why that saying came to be a wise old saying, and then take a long hard look at how they've behaved in this thread!

This thread is no battle of ideologies. Its an orgy of shitheels who think its amusing to fling feces like a bunch of fucking chimps at a man who was greater than most of us could possibly dream of becoming. Who among you would openly criticize NAZIism and advocate for the Jews under NAZI occupation? Who among you would tell the Soviet Union that they're an abomination and that they have no moral authority over the people in the Iron Curtain nations, actually saying it behind said curtain. If you made a list of the top 5 or 10 people most responsible for the fall of Soviet Communism and the end of the Cold War, Pope John Paul would have to be on that list.

He criticized the brutality of Communism and the excesses and exploitation of capitalism. He had a fine line to walk. Catholicisms fastest growing sectors, Latin America and Africa, favoring a much more conservative approach to the religion and those of Western Europe and the US who would see its core values compromised to appeal to modern society. An action in either direction no doubt pissing off the other half. But he walked that line, through most of his papacy, with unending vigor, patience, and perseverence.

A visit from this man would draw crowds of hundreds of thousands...even millions. He did not rest comfortably in his Vatican Palace, he administered to the world, traveling more than any other Pope in history tenfold.

He recognized many of Catholicisms mistakes of the past, visited those aggrieved parties, and apologized accordingly. A man of immense power and influence humbling himself and his followers. Where are the Muslim clerics apologizing for terrorism? The Protestants apologizing for Civil Rights era lynchings? The KKK?

And a media circus? This man was a leader and icon to billions. Catholics and non-catholics alike mourn his passing. He is a public figure, one who has inspired hope and justice for decades. You would rather have the billions that his passing will affect sit there and wait without news? This vigil was handled in a tasteful and reverent manner by most media organizations I came across. Pope John Paul II was one of the most public figures in the world. And that public has every right to be notified of his condition and eventual passing. Circus my ass.

Constructive criticism is good. Intelligent debate as to the true extent of his influence and his impact on history, its quite important to discuss those things. But snide comments, irreverant remarks, and a gaulling lack of any respect whatsoever are uncalled for. I don't care how hostile you may be to religion in general. I'm not a big fan of it myself. But the fact still remains, a great man has left us...and most of you are simply flinging shit.

Its sick.

I don't want to sound trite, but millions of people turned out to see the Pope because they were catholics or simply wanted to be part of an "event", it has absolutely nothing to do with him personally.

As the vast crowds at the Vatican proved over the past weeks when it was people other than the Pope giving mass, people are their because it's part of their religion. It doesn't matter who the figurehead is, as long as there is one.

It's the same as we've seen with the British monarchy and so on. People barely care about the person, they only care about what they represent. You could have stuck a mannequin with a silly hat on in the Popemobile and still people would turn out by the thousands, because of what it represented to them.

The pope is an idol, an institution and the millions that turned up had nothing to do with him as a person. If it had been thousands would have followed him around daily when he was a lowly priest. They could make Charles Manson the next pope and he'd draw the same amount of addoration, simply because of WHAT he is, not WHO he is.

Enlightenment, yes, the Pope was a greater man than many of us but there are millions of people out there greater still who do god's work quietly, with dignity and closer to the people. People who are even more deserving of respect and adoration than the late pope.

I think those people that have spoken here are those that do have respect for the man, but not for the institution. Despite yours and Bow's vehement condemnation, I haven't seen anything by sympathy for the Pope HIMSELF in his final hours.

Your trite bullshit sickens me to the core you unmentionable bastard! You're a fucking hypocrtite! You go on about voicing your opinion from the safety for a computer screen like some big hero, when the reality is that when you deal with the man as a humanitarian, as so many news broadcasters have, on those grounds alone he's a thousand times the person you could ever hope to be - a man who voiced his opinions, but unlike you in your safe little buble, did so in those very places where those opinions could have quite easily gotten him killed! Take the death threats out the equation and congrats, you're as big a scumbag as nazinazinazinazinazinazinazi! Disagree with me all you like, but the truth of the matter is that flinging shit at a dying man who spent his life trying to make the world a better place, even before he entered the priesthood, conning old people out of their life savings, abusing children- they're all the work of scumbags!

I'm sorry, where did I fling shit at the pope as a person or a humanitarian?

You seem unable to rein in your hysteria long enough to make any kind of sense.

Read my post again. Did I claim to be a big humanitarian like the pope was? No.

But I'd be lying it I thought that he was the greatest man in the world, the biggest humanitarian or even the best christian. To say that WOULD make me a "fucking hypocrite" since it's clearly not what I believe and it would be entirely hypocritical for me to change my views because the man has recently died.

There are others who are equally deserving of the respect being shown to him.

I didn't say I was one of them.

SAJse,

Just trying to understand things here.

Bowspearer said: "Anything less and a person crosses the line from being civilised to being scum, no matter how you try to spin it!"

Then you said: "Then in your eyes God must be scum because he allowed severe punishments like stoning..."

Isn't there a logical falicy there? God isn't a person, so your statement can't be valid.

Secondly, the original statement had to do with respecting those who are dead/dying regardless of their sins in life.

As far as I can tell, your conclusion says nothing about that. All it seems to say is that God allowed people to die, and inferred that there was something unfair about the fact or way that He did so.

Which is a reasonable opinion, but it's not a logically conclusive statement derived from Bowspearer's statement, unless I am completely missing something here.

As to your argument: "We are still not in his perfect world and times are bad. Therefore constructive criticism is a DUTY of anyone who calls themselves Christian."

True, the world we live in is "bad" insomuch as there are a few people with free will sinning to such a level as to make the 6 o'clock news. Otherwise the world is quite good. But we'll go with your statement for the time being, as I can understand where you're coming from.

As to what the duty of Christians is in regards to that are... do you mean Catholics? Or are you lumping the two together? I'll assume that you are and say... I suppose that depends on what kind of Christian you wish to be.

Some Christians would say, "Yes, I would like to criticize the Pope's life at the time of his death for hopes that the many people who are paying attention at the time will find it in their hearts call for a Pope who is more in keeping with my personal views on Christianity/Catholicism."

Of course the result might be quite different. The result might well be anger and resentment, and not thoughtful consideration as should befit constructive criticism.

You said: "And like I said above, that criticism can come at ANY time. Even during death."

Yes, but can does not always mean should.

Perhaps there is a better time. Perhaps if you do truly want to be constructive, and not say, antagonistic, you would wait until the period of morning is over, or at least until emotions are less elevated, and open a dialogue then.

Also, I think a Christian might also note the difference between criticizing the Office of the Papacy, and the man who is Pope. One may criticize the one while respecting the other, or vice versa.

Personally, I agree with those here who have said that this is a time for respecting the man as he is passing, simply as a man if nothing else.

I apologise for the painfulness of this post.

QUOTE (Bluestreak 26 @ Apr 02 2005, 21.17)

Bowspearer said: "Anything less and a person crosses the line from being civilised to being scum, no matter how you try to spin it!"

Then you said: "Then in your eyes God must be scum because he allowed severe punishments like stoning..."

Isn't there a logical falicy there? God isn't a person, so your statement can't be valid.

Secondly, the original statement had to do with respecting those who are dead/dying regardless of their sins in life.

Sorry but your second arguement is moot because Bowspearer regards any perpetrator of an undignified death as scum. Therefore he regards God as scum.

God may not be a human being but he IS a "person". he's the ultimate sentient being for crying out loud.

QUOTE (Bluestreak 26 @ Apr 02 2005, 21.17)

As to your argument: "We are still not in his perfect world and times are bad. Therefore constructive criticism is a DUTY of anyone who calls themselves Christian."

True, the world we live in is "bad" insomuch as there are a few people with free will sinning to such a level as to make the 6 o'clock news. Otherwise the world is quite good. But we'll go with your statement for the time being, as I can understand where you're coming from.

As to what the duty of Christians is in regards to that are... do you mean Catholics? Or are you lumping the two together? I'll assume that you are and say... I suppose that depends on what kind of Christian you wish to be.

No, I wouldn't necessarilly regard Catholics as Christians but that's just my opinion based on shady practices and festivals they promote. Though judging from Bowspearer's reaction in this thread (bar L.Ninio who's stirring the shit) I think he's proving my point for me.

And dude, the world isn't quite good for those of us who're suffering. Even us 1st worlders live in a world filled with danger.

Maybe you're right about criticism coming at the right time but like I said before, if Mugabe had been on his deathbed I wouln't have seen criticism as a no go area. And no, I'm not comparing John Paul to Mugabe.

QUOTE (EnlightenmentHK @ Apr 02 2005, 22.58)

A visit from this man would draw crowds of hundreds of thousands...even millions.

Yeah, I believe Hitler was quite popular too. Point? Thanks for joining us in this retarded discussion.

Oh an please refer to Angelophile's post for a more intelligently thought out reply to this last point.