Right now, his condition keeps worsening. Let's pray for him.

Agreed!

QUOTE (MightyRobot @ Apr 01 2005, 16.08)

Agreed!

Although considering he's the head of the Catholic church I think we'll be praying for different reasons.

*note the lack of smilies*

so mean.

Pray for him to what?

1) Get better? The guy is 88 years old. What is happening is natural.

2) Go to heaven? I'm sure that if there is a heaven as the Catholics percieve it...he's going. With a golden ticket.

You fellows have such wrong ideas...but for all the right reasons. I admire that you wish no harm on others.

*sigh.

I'm sure i'll get flamed for this no matter how truthful it is.

P.S. --- Just in case someone like...oh I dunno...Bowspearer or whomever, comes in here telling me how ignorant I am about the Catholic religion, You should know that on my Mother's side of the family, my Grandfather and two of my Uncles are Catholic priests. Are they saddened by this? Well, I live about 600 miles from them nowadays but i'm sure they are. I'm sure that they are joining you in your prayer...for the Pope...the guy who believes that people who are gay are going to hell...that women should remain in the home...that abortion is wrong even in cases of rape, deformity, or danger to the mother...that democracy is a failing system...& on & on & on.

QUOTE (MightyRobot @ Apr 01 2005, 16.37)

so mean.

Catholcism is all about dogma, crap n' crud. It's so twisted that Jesus would be if he ever appeared on Earth today.

John Paul seems like a decent guy (Not that decent guys should be the only people worthy of a good prayage) but IMO he's clearly deluded.

He does his job well but I don't agree with it in the first place.

Ugghh...this is one of the reasons I almost wanted to avoid all forums for a while just so I wouldn't have to hear this kind of shit. This is one of the last great men of our era. There aren't many other leaders in the world that command the kind of respect, influence, and awe that he did. The man has been one of Catholicisms greatest leaders for decades. He's taken the faith in bold new directions. Done things, grand and humbling, that most previously would never think they'd see.

This is a passing to mourn. A legacy to admire. And a new era for many catholics to look forward two. Seriously, a large number of Catholics have never known another pope. Those who did can barely remember what it was like. He broke alot of barriers, whoever thought a non-italian Pope could be elected (its happened, but its extremely rare) for one and to have the impact he's had. What other world leaders compare? What other global figures are so ingrained in our consciousness that their life and legacy has become iconical? Nelson Mandela? Mother Teresa? I really can't think of many more.

So make jokes and disparaging remarks if you like. Personally, I'd rather honor the life and legacy of a great man.

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 01 2005, 17.13)

Catholcism is all about dogma, crap n' crud. It's so twisted that Jesus would be if he ever appeared on Earth today.

Really? One thing that has amazed me about modern day Western Catholicism in practice is how it evolved from its earlier (much earlier, centuries) extremes to become one of the most moderate, non-extreme of religions, while still maintaining significant influence. Compared to many of the Protestant strains, evangelicals especially, Catholicism is downright progressive. It has its tenants, dogma, and rules...but most Western Catholics exercise enough free thinking to pick and choose amongst them the ones they favor, and ignore the rest. Individual choices and thought not prevelant in many other faiths.

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 01 2005, 17.13)

John Paul seems like a decent guy (Not that decent guys should be the only people worthy of a good prayage) but IMO he's clearly deluded.

Deluded how?

Finally some common sense in this thread! Before I read this, I was inches from ripping the shit out of some people in this thread who have sprouted complete and unfounded bullshit! He was and he is, a great truly great man- one of reconcilliation, one of peace, one of justice! Oh and SAJse, to say he is deluded is to condone the Holocaust (he was vehemently oposed to the Nazis), agree with the Cold War (he was instrumental in it's demise) support bloody and vicious millitary coups (he strongly denounced such coups in south america), agree with the selfish idea of the exploitation of people (he spoke in the UN about the dire need to respect all life and both men and women and respecting the sanctity of life), support the exploitation of thrid world countries (he was very concerned with the elimination of such exploitation), support pedophilia in the church (once the pope knew about what had been happening, he publicly denounced it by describing it as a terriable act that greatly offended God and told the cardinals to fully and properly deal with it) and enjoy the thought of weapons of mass destruction in this world (he campaigned for them being removed). I mean if he is deluded in general terms, then clearly you must disagree with his stance on everything. Or did you just not bother to get your facts straight before posting that?

Woooaah! I agreed that he's a decent guy.

And he's deluded because he's head of that paganfest that is the Catholic church.

Leave me alone.

QUOTE (mr_sinister_31 @ Apr 01 2005, 16.37)

the Pope...the guy who believes that people who are gay are going to hell

No actually the church doesn't condemn homosexuals, just homsexual intercourse, and even then it's in the same category as pre marital sex!

QUOTE (mr_sinister_31 @ Apr 01 2005, 16.37)

...that women should remain in the home...

Oh really, then explain why there are so many female teachers in catholic schools, and why just in the case of my area alone (which is effectively a couple of hundred square kilometres), the person in charge of youth ministry (youth events, youth groups, etc) is a woman?

QUOTE (mr_sinister_31 @ Apr 01 2005, 16.37)

that abortion is wrong even in cases of rape, deformity, or danger to the mother...

Murder is murder, whichever way you cut it! People these days have a fast food attitude to everything even life, you have sex and create a life, you've got a responsibilty to that life LIKJE IT OR LUMP IT! I'd love to see you have that same attitude to a mother who killed a 5 year old because the time requirements and energy required was having a detremental effect on the mother. Oh and let me tell you about a friend of mine who died a couple of years ago. She had a form of gigantism that affected her internal organs. She was told that she could never have kids because it would be too much on her and she risked dying from it. When she fell pregnant, she would have had 5 years left were it not for the pregnancy- she died the year after she gave birth to them! Want to know something though? Her proudest accomplishment were her two bouys, the day they were born was the happiest day of her life. dId she regret it? HELL NO!!!!As far as deformity goes, I challenge you to ask someone with a disability or deformity if they'd never been born. I fit in that category and right now had you said that to me, you'd be on the floor, blood would be gushing out, they'd need an ambulanbce to haul your ass into INTENSIVE CARE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!!! As for rape, I'm guessing you've never heard of a D&C?

QUOTE (mr_sinister_31 @ Apr 01 2005, 16.37)

that democracy is a failing system...& on & on & on.

Oh really, then why was JPII a strong believer in democracy as he viewed it as the one system where people truly have freedom?

Maybe you should think before posting next time?

Ah, the joy of catholicism trying to force its dogma on others.

Sorry, but not sure I'll ever consider someone who has condoned the systematic cover up of pedophiles in the catholic church to be a great man.

He's undoubtedly done more good than harm, but sadly I think the catholic church has a long way to go before I stop considering it a rather hateful organisation.

It's a shame he's dying in such discomfort, though, that is undoubtedly true and I have every sympathy for a man being kept alive beyond his years.

I'll pray that his passing is quick and leaves him with a little of the remaining dignity he has left and isn't painful. I hope he finds the eternal rest he deserves.

I have that sympathy for every elderly man and woman dying at this time. It's all part of God's rich tapestry of life that the elderly eventually die.

I hope he passes peacefully.

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 02 2005, 03.48)

Ah, the joy of catholicism trying to force its dogma on others.

FUCK YOU! If attacking someone throwing out false allegations against me is forcing my 'dogma' on others, then George W is a super-genius!

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 02 2005, 03.48)

He's undoubtedly done more good than harm, but sadly I think the catholic church has a long way to go before I stop considering it a rather hateful organisation.

You do realise that by attacking the organisation as a whole you attack its members as a whole throughout the course of history don't you? So the whole of the Catholic church (all its members who did, have and will exist) are hateful huh? I'm not sure you realise it, but you've just opened yourself up to something far worse! Let's suppose I used Imperialist England to judge every single Brit who ever lived, lives now and will ever live.

See Imperial England used to get its joys from addicting whole nations to raw herion and then using gunboat diplomacy to bankrupt them when they didn't like it and subsequently stealing shipping ports from them for one and a half centuries; using the breast skins of American Women as tobacco pouches, sexually torturing the women of indigenous countries with hot pokers and burying Indigenous Australian children upto their heads in sand and using their heads as polo targets!

Now noone arguing a rational case would say that because some Brits in the past got their kicks from these things, you and every other Brit that has lived, lives now and will live condone these actions. Yet if I used your logic regarding the catholic church, then isn't that the very thing I'd be arguing?

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 02 2005, 03.48)

Ah, the joy of catholicism trying to force its dogma on others.

LOL

explain why there are so many female teachers in catholic schools, and why just in the case of my area alone (which is effectively a couple of hundred square kilometres), the person in charge of youth ministry (youth events, youth groups, etc) is a woman?

They're probably sick and tired of the male teachers bending the students over.

What's your point?

The British also tied prisoners over the barrels of canons and blew their guts out after the Indian Mutiny. They did this and a whole lot more and these weren't just the actions of single people but actions that were condoned at the time by the vast majority of Britons.

But do you expect me to start condoning or defending the actions of Imperialist Britain?

Not gonna do that. The British did that and a lot worse.

The British STILL do terrible things and when it happens, it should be held up for the public to see and be disgusted.

The same with the catholic church.

I don't hold the church accountable for things it's done through the ages, but I think it's reasonable to hold the catholic church responsible for things that are happening now, like the cases of pedophiles simply being covered up or other issues, like the attitude to homosexuality, abortion and contraception, the latter of which I would consider entirely reprehensible.

I'm not talking about the Inquisition or the Crusades or the church's attitude towards fascism and the genocide of the Jews.

While these things are worth questioning, they aren't the reasons for my problems with catholicism.

I don't expect you to agree with me, so please don't expect me to agree with you or anyone else that claims the Pope to be the living embodiment of god on earth and entirely infalible.

He's a poor old man who's dying in pain and should have been let pass away peacefully some time ago.

And for that alone, he is in my prayers.

But the catholic church isn't.

QUOTE (L.Ninio @ Apr 02 2005, 06.16)

They're probably sick and tired of the male teachers bending the students over.

As someone training to be a primary school teacher at the moment, you're damn lucky you don't live that close to me, because right if you did live close by, you'd need people to hold me back from stabbing you rewpeatedly with a carving knife YOU SICK FUCK!!!!!!

As I said, you attacked the church in general, which means with how catholics view the setup of the church, if you understood it (clearly you don't) that unless you're clear on exactly which part of the church you're attacking, you attacked everyone in it, past present and future (catholics, including myself regard themself as part of the whole), including myself. And so my arguement stands, unless you wish to clarify your position.

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 02 2005, 06.21)

I don't expect you to agree with me, so please don't expect me to agree with you or anyone else that claims the Pope to be the living embodiment of god on earth and entirely infalible.

There you go again, a little bit of knowledge which can be a dangerous thing indeed! Catholics don't believe that a Pope is completely infallible. The infalibility only goes as far as those things that are universal across every denomination of christianity (with the exception of Mary), knowledge which is considered 'divine'. Human decisions, such as the corruption with indulgences which caused the lutheran split (something I strongly side with the lutherans on) is a human decision, so it's basically a case of it being open slather (and oviously if you carried that through fully, human decisions can never override divine knowledge). Look, what you believe is entirely upto you, but at least get your facts straight before arguing something.

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 02 2005, 06.22)

As someone training to be a primary school teacher at the moment, you're damn lucky you don't live that close to me, because right if you did live close by, you'd need people to hold me back from stabbing you rewpeatedly with a carving knife YOU SICK FUCK!!!!!!

Training to be a primary school teacher??

I hope you dont talk that way to your classroom... LOL

Nope, you're right, I attack the catholic church, from the papal decree that sets the doctrine to the priest that carries it out, to those people who picket outside abortion clinics because their church tells they to.

It is, however, entirely possible to dislike an organisation, religion or even race, but like individuals.

Case in point - Americans.

Many are keen to point out the problems with America's imperialist policies, as well they should.

That doesn't mean those people are personally attacking individual Americans, just the policies they condone and follow.

QUOTE (Primus @ Apr 02 2005, 06.32)

Training to be a primary school teacher??

I hope you dont talk that way to your classroom... LOL

LOL, nah. I tried doing the professional equivalent, which was reporting the post to a mod (if kids get too bad, it's a job for the principal ) only the option had been disabled! L.Ninio just pushed me to the point where he can be glad he lives interstate, because to be brutally honest, there's a good chance he would have been seriously injured and I'd be in jail right now...

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 02 2005, 06.34)

Nope, you're right, I attack the catholic church, from the papal decree that sets the doctrine to the priest that carries it out, to those people who picket outside abortion clinics because their church tells they to.

Real big hero, picking on a dying man when he's down- you're DESPICABLE SCUM!!!!! I honestly don't know how people like you can sleep at night! Your well wishes for JPII with what you've said have all the sincerity of a KKK member who uses the copout of "Some of my best friends are black people"