QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 03 2005, 05.54)

With all the sincerity of a KKK member about to lynch someone!

It was actually in reference to my "post quoting" but thanks for missinterpreting me.

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 03 2005, 05.54)

No actually I only regard people who get their jollies from slagging off on people on their death beds as scum. Now gee I wonder who that could be?

There was no joy in my constructive criticism (apart from me being right IMO). maybe "deluded" was vague but i think I cleared that up quite early on.

QUOTE (Bowspearer @ Apr 03 2005, 05.54)

Comparing JP2 to Hitler?! Man you are one twisted FREAK!

I didn't compare John Paul to Hitler. I merely quoted something Enlightenment said (admittedly without full context) and used it as an example. It's quite obsurd when you think about it (much like this discussion). I here the "Great Leader" draws a nice crowd aswell.

Generally the posts from people here have been calm and sensible. l.Ninio's a wind up merchant, we all know this, but the threats of violence are going too far and generally, Bow in particular, really needs to calm down.

I understand this is an emotive issue for people, but if you're not able to be rational, don't discuss it at all.

As hs been said before, thiswasn't the right place for a discussion like this, but simply put, a message board about Don Murphy, film producer, doesn't invite serious or sympathatic discussion about the pope, religion or politics. None of those have a place here, so there's no point using the "this wasn't the place" argument because everyone is already aware of that. However, we didn't bring it up.

I'm hoping SAJse will run it past Don to close this thread because, frankly, this is not what I'm here for. However, as long as I continue to be attacked, threatened with violence or called scum over and over I won't simply walk away and let myself be trashed.

This thread obviously would have gone the way it has with or without me. I've just made it....interesting.

Please either delete or at least lock this thread. I had no idea that it would turn into something like this. I intended for this thread to be peaceful.

Ok, I think although Bowspearer did go a bit nuts, almost every post pushed him, wether intentionally or not.

Heres the summary as I see it.

'Can we have some goodwill towards JP2 who passed on today'.

'Sure bless him, not his religion, which sucked, but bless him'

'What? he was a good man!'

'yeah but his beliefs sucked, poor guy'

'He's the pope! he is that belief!'

Honestly! I'm atheist but attacking the popes religion at the time of his passing, which happen to be a core part of who he is, is just as bad as criticising any other part of him.

So. I'm guessing we didn't mean to hurt you Bow, you didn't mean to hurt us. We ALL didn't mean to hurt the pope, but some of us REALLY need to realise you can't nitpick at catholicism when the human embodiment of it is in the hearts of suffering catholics.

QUOTE (Angelophile @ Apr 03 2005, 06.58)

Agreed. Generally the posts from people here have been calm and sensible. l.Ninio's a wind up merchant, we all know this, but the threats of violence are going too far and generally, Bow in particular, really needs to calm down.

I understand this is an emotive issue for people, but if you're not able to be rational, don't discuss it at all.

This was never a discussion you fucking moron! This was a thread which was intended for condolences to a dying man! KS68's mistake was assuming that the members of this board would understand that some of us would be in mourning, and let me spell it out for the ignoramouses out there who don't get it: for some of us this is like a family member dying here, and yes some of us aren't thinking rationally, but I challenge anyone here to honestly be thinking rationally when they've just lost someone close to them! I also challenge anyone here not to completely want to lose it when A) someone starts going into character assasination of said loved one (it's about the closest analogy I can give and B) when someone makes a comment that hits a real deep nerve in addition to that character assasination, excepting them not to completely lose it is riduculous!

Now I've mentioned what's happened here to friends of mine (some religious, some non religious) and the general tone is that they've been shocked and appaled that someone would have such a lack of common decency that they'd choose the time of the pope's passing to start up an attack on the church! In fact I'd be surprised if the majority of the world didn't feel that way! People may have said what they said rationally here, but they also displayed the scrulpes of a scumbag and the empathy of a sociopath by choosing to post here and when they have been to begin with!

I challenge anyone here to walk into a large funeral, badmouth the person being buried verbatum and walk out of there unharmed- because the fact is that it wouldn't happen! You said if you can't be rational not to post Angelophile. Well here's a better idea, if you lack the social abilities of empathy, sensativity and a non-ego centric attitudes where you feel the need to attack something regardless of the situation, then do everyone a favour and don't bother socialising either online or in real life!

Bowspearer, I don't care if this post winds you up.

The Pope is NOT a normal person. As head of a large organisation, i.e. THE CHURCH, normal ways of thinking are not going toapply and neither should they. If is death doesn't prompt discussion about all matters religious, what will?

Using a funeral analogy is dumb. If you someone you hated or just slightly disliked died, you just wouldn't go to the funeral, an actual EVENT. Talking about that persons faults/actions/achievements outside of an all too real funeral is perfectly allowable, it's up to that person how much particular taste they have. But with the Pope in this case, course he's gonna get talked about get over it.

You think you ar ebeing offended by people 'attacking' the Pope, consider how much you are offending other people by shoving your beliefs down their throats. And don't even attempt to defend that point. By starting this thread on this forum you asked for it. There are PLENTY of altenratives in the real world for you to channel your grief, the other Transfans or Don Murphy-ites don't need you to tell us how you feel or what is going on outside. But if you do choose to bring it here, act like a man and get over it when people discuss, seriously or otherwise.

EVERYTHING in this world has two sides to it. Including the Pope and The CHurch, but surprisingly a lot of rleigious people don't want to discuss how far religon has equally held umanity back as it has progressed. There are two sidesa to every coin, including The Pope. It may come as a shock to you, but some people don't like rleigion and don't like him and their reasons maybe just as valid as yours.

You wanna mourn, do it. BUT NOT HERE. This is not the place to bring your private issues then cry when they are dissected. You are not offering a public service. Take your grief somewhere where you can channel it and leave the rest of us in peace.

QUOTE (The Defiant @ Apr 03 2005, 08.14)

Bowspearer, I don't care if this post winds you up.

BURN IN HELL YOU FUCKING PIGS! I QUIT THIS FUCKED UP ASSHOLE'S DEN!!! YOU'RE ALL FUCKED UP SCUMBAGS AND WORSE THAN nazinazinazinazinazinazinazi!!!! And Don, if you don't take a stand here for the sake of common decency, THAT INCLUDES YOU!!!

Most retarded post ever.

This is why some people have problems with religion. You shame Christians everywhere, Bowspearer.

I have a feeling that Don's reaction to that little demand will be less than happy.

Goodbye Bow.

I truly hope you find whatever you were looking for on some other message boards.

Sadly, from this entire sorry event, I won't miss you. Rather, I'm glad you're leaving.

There's a limit to what people will tolerate from someone "greiving" and you've crossed the line into pure assholedom.

did i miss something....

jesus christ...an old man has died in italy who was the leader of the church and did some good thing's in his life. Bit of a bitch really if he could realise there's no such thing as heaven. I don;t belive in all that crap but some people do fair enough. But really having arguments over one frial old man's death... it's a bit sad really.

SImple some people belive other's don;t respect each other faith's and you can get along.. Most of the wars in the world today are fought over religion...which really is shit because there is no such thing as god or heaven...I don't care if someone say's how do you know... Look I don;t belive in god or heaven so don't fucking have a whinge on at me for expressing my opinion..But the only referance we have to their ever being a god or jesus is the Bible....Now i would like to have met he guy who wrote it and said....hmm excuse me mate but if I were you i would write in that all person's and events in this book are purely fictitios and any resemblance to somebody living or dead is purely coincidental. Because otherwise your gonna fuck the world up with that book of your's me laddo.

Oh and mate...you have single handedly made awards show's like the oscars a bore and cringe fest because we have to hear actors and actresses go up and say....blah blah..I don't know how I have got the strength to....like to thank god for giving me the will to fucking yadda yadda...SHUT THE FUCK UP and give your sickingly large check for doing fuck all to charity you asses.

anwway... bit sad the old guy's dead...but one it has nothing to do with me in anyway shape or form... When my brother died in hillsbrough where was god then...oh yeah he's apparantly giving actor's the strength to make money...and when those people died in 9/11 sound's to me like he was making sure some old guy is feeling a bit better.... and when people died in the tsunami....I bet the fucker had a plan for that didn;t he...

pah... What a load of fucking bollocks. I know I said respect other people's faith and religions...but writing this has pissed me off.... let's face it religion and bloody stupid mindedness has stared most of the troubles in this world...so let's get on our knees and pray should we......

yeah fucking bound to....!

This is what happens when people lack respect for such great men of history.

May Pope John Paul II rest in peace for eternity with the heavenly Father. We'll miss you Holy Father.

3 words: close this thread.

please do.

Everytime i think its over someone loses it and starts ranting again

I don't get why a thread should be closed just because it gets heated. Rants are a staple of the internet and if someone wants to be an assclown then what's the problem?

It's not like we're clogging up space in the TF forum.

OPG1 - Sorry about your bro. I didn't know anyone personally who was there.

Fatalism is dogma, and not very convincing dogma at that. It's not biblical.

We did a bit of Bible history in Uni.

The Old Testament is indeed the oldest part of the Bible. These texts were written by the Jews long ago and passed alongover the years where more and more books were consistently added over hundred's of years by the Jewish scholars. By the time of Roman dominion and the event's surrounding Jesus' death, the Roman Empire eventually converted to Catholicism and as a result, so did all of its Empire. Somewhere around this time immediately after Jesus' death, more bible books were *commissioned* and then the four deemed most suitable were included. This more than anyhitng shows that it is NOT God who writes the Bible, or even edits it. More and more books were added until some Bishop in Egypt around the year 330AD declared the Bible closed. No more books thanks, we'll call it quits. Once again a MAN makes the editorial decision. Some Bibles have an Apocrypha section where 'later' books are officially/unofficially included. Get your numerous trnaslations into numerous languages, the already existing combinations of books for the different Bible's, King James *commissiong* another 'final' re-write and you have yourself the world's oldest compendium.

Modern day equivalent. The Bible is a collection of short stories ranging in age. It's exactly like us buying a collection with contributions ranging from Shakespeare, Dickens, Roald Dahl and JK Rowling. That's what kind of time difference we're talking back in AD330.

Can such a book be editorially, factually and historically consistent. The evidence quite clearly says NO. But depsite this, everyone will keep telling each other it IS. And then you've got eveyone elses religion....

It's all a bit daft really. If you born and raised by wolves, what religion would you know then? Take a fad, sprinkle some authority, spread over some fantasy gather a few members and leave to boil. Now you have a cult; leave to simmer for a hundred years or more and you now have a religion, which nobody is allowed to criticise due to the immense amount of TIME you have on your side.

Yum.

QUOTE (The Defiant @ Apr 03 2005, 12.11)

Can such a book be editorially, factually and historically consistent. The evidence quite clearly says NO.

How so?

And being inspired by God and Written by God are two different things.

i'll just add my two cents.

I have serious issues with the Catholic church. They've added a bunch of stuff to the bible (and it says right in the bible that adding or taking away from the word is a horrible sin), so the whole thing is hypocritical because they didn't follow their own rules. And having some super important "leader" who is practically deified.....is just wrong.

It's a government, not a religion. But most churches are that way now.

That being said, JP2 was a good man, and he will be missed by many. He was a shining example of responsibility and mercy, and the world would be a better place if we all had his priorities.

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 03 2005, 05.36)

I apologise for the painfulness of this post.

And I the painfulness of this reply. (especially when it comes so late -- you guys must stop posting so much while I sleep )

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 03 2005, 05.36)

Sorry but your second arguement is moot because Bowspearer regards any perpetrator of an undignified death as scum. Therefore he regards God as scum.

God may not be a human being but he IS a "person". he's the ultimate sentient being for crying out loud.

Two points.

First, I see you've confused "someone who is disrespectful" with "perpetrator". Again, Bowspearer was focusing on those who disrespect the dying and not those who are the cause of the death, or even those who sanction it. God may have caused and sanctioned untold deaths in many ways, but there is no evidence to suggest that He was disrespectful to those who died.

Secondly, God is a "person"? Really? I don't know of many religions at all that would claim that, muchless Catholicism or Christianity. Generally, God is understood to be a being so limitless and powerful that some religions won't even name Him, muchless judge Him as we would a person.

Granted, we do assign Him human traits and describe him in terms that suggest "personhood," but with the clear knowledge that we do so only because we are seeking understanding, not because we actually believe he is a "person" -- even a perfect one. We understand that He is so much more that we can't comprehend it. It may be a poor analogy, but "personhood" is to God what a hydrogren atom is to a star.

(note: I'm using "we" in the most general sense -- both those who believe in this kind of God and those who are willing to Philosophize that such a God could exist).

QUOTE (SAJse @ Apr 03 2005, 05.36)

And dude, the world isn't quite good for those of us who're suffering. Even us 1st worlders live in a world filled with danger.

True. The world is bad for those who are suffering. However, you shouldn't let your personal view define your view for the whole world. Saying "the world is in a bad state" because your immediate world is in a bad state is misleading.

The world is actually in a very good state historically speaking. That is, there is far less violent unrest in the world today than there has been historically. The world continues to advance in science, medicine, and technology at an extremely quick pace (historically speaking).

The world is also in a very good state statistically speaking. Statistically there is far more peace than there is war. There is much more happiness than there is discontent. There is far more safety than there is danger.

That's not to say that there isn't death, suffering, disease, danger and all the horrible things that come with our current human existence. It's simply that there is so much more good in this world that, well, I think we shouldn't simply dismiss the goodness by saying "times are bad." That's all.