I just might have to add to the current sales bump that the works of one Brandon Sanderson are no doubt seeing at the moment. Definitely curious about the past work of the guy currently taking over the reins.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

The Wheel of Time is a much better series than Song because Jordan didn't write himself into a corner halfway through the series. Or was I not suppose to mention that little problem? Martin may work his way out of it {or more likely, around it} but it won't really feel the same.

I say this out of love and compassion for my fellow man; Drugs are bad. What corner did Martin write himself into again? And I fricken wish Jordan would have found a corner to write into. Because it beats the hell out of exponentially expanding his cast and world beyond his ability to sustain any narrative at all, let alone an interesting one. Comparing aSoIaF to WoT is like comparing the Godfather to Christian Slater's Mobster's. Sure you can do it, but why would you want to?

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

To be fair, Jordan had a bit of a problem around book 8-11

Bit of a problem? You are one of the most tolerant and yet misguided people I've ever come across.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

I enjoyed the battles

Would that be when Rand and friends completely obliterated a billion trollocs that suddenly came out of someones ass (god forbid anyone set scouts) before finishing their toast and orange juice?

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

the madness

The guy has a voice in his head that is most likely real. And he whines to himself alot. Yeah...real headcase there.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

the farcial comedy

Would that be the part about world weary 20 somethings who have seen dozens of battles and a thousand deaths still acting like immature 5 year olds who think girls have cooties? Or is skirt smoothing and braid tugging just that hilarious?

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

and personal sacrifice

Name a major character that has really sacrificed anything in the series yet. And no she doesn't count cause its been hinted for 20 books now that she's coming back. Nope, everyone who was there in book 1 is still there now. No lost lovers either. Just alot of internal whining.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 13 2008, 14.16)

Is there any series written over a good length of time that doesn't fit this statement?

This is one of the lamest excuses for the series turning to shit that I've ever heard. That's your argument? Other long epics are bad too? Maybe if he hadn't forgotten that plot and progression are usually two words that like to go together, this series wouldn't have had to be dragged out near the 'length of time' it was.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 01.14)

Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?

What world building does Jordan have? Neighbors a few miles away with no major geographical or other barriers to contact having radically different cultures, custom, dress and languages with no explanation beyond the fact that RJ wanted it that way? Changing the lettering of a few real world mythical/historical names, peoples, empires and throwing them into the appendix? Villains who are talked up alot but amount to bickering pipsqueaks? Magicians who are talked up alot but amount to bickering bitches? I'm failing to grasp the depth and subtlety you seem to think exists here but not with Martin.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

a well developed world is one which has strong internal consistency

Heh...I hadn't even gotten to this post yet, but some of what I posted above already covers it. I'll also add a dot on the map previously unmentioned that just happened to be the lone magic sucking place on the continent (you'd figure a place with that distinct peculiarity might have merited earlier mention) that pretty much exists so that there'd be actual tension and drama to whatever Rand does. (since he'd long since reached the point of uber-invincibility with magic)

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

while also developing concepts and ideas worthy of exploration.

Holy Vague BULLSHIT BATMAN! Seriously, what concepts? What ideas?

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

with the obvious bias against men presented well.

This would be the forementioned pages upon pages of random catty bitches calling men woolheads and trusting them with nothing even though they're proven time and again to be much more competent.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

Also, the White Tower is very well developed as a corrupted organization at the cusp of complete breakdown, an orginization of wasted opportunitites that has gotten too used to its power, and misuses it.

Define 'well presented'. Would this be the overabundance of girl on girl spanking. People in different colored robes behaving like teenage cliques in a John Hughes movie? The presents of people so evil that they call themselves darkfriends, joining the Randland equivilent of Satan for no explicable purpose other than the fact that they're 'bad and evil'. (subtle...yeah)

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

The Seanchan are also an interestingly presented antagonistic civilization.

Define interestingly. Seriously, outside of a fetish for slavery and some emperor worship, there's not much to them. And that culture that developed thousands of miles away on a completely separate continent...yeah...their women act the same as all the rest.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

Rather than take the extremely easy and dull route of presenting them as a totally evil culture, Jordan creates a society that has upward mobility and equal justice for all, while yet being a society with slaves that captures all channelers.

Yeah. Mr. Jordan was just so damned subtle and creative. He saves total irredeemable evil for people who call themselves super-dark-evil-friend-force-five and side with Satan. Sneering, white hat wearing would be theocrats are also evil. And their not orcs...they're trollocs. What a fucking masterstroke of imagination.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

I asked how this was so with respect to a magic system.

And that's an absurdly dumb question. Unless you can explain to me why a magic system (or any magic at all) is an integral aspect of good fantasy.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

The statement was made because I see many similarities in the way both Dumas and Jordan write, as well as their characters.

I must have missed the skirt smoothing and braid tugging in my last reread of Monte.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

They do not lack in development or motivation, and come across as real people

Naive farmboys who didn't know how to talk to women are now naive boys who still don't know how to talk to women. They're not on the farm anymore...that's development for ya. Even the adults who've been around a couple hundred years act like children. Harry potter has more mature interactions between characters.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

Certainly, the complexity isn't visible on the surface, but the plot is quite dense and complex.

No the plot just has alot of needless characters and other random shit thrown at it. It may at first glance appear complex, but that's simply because Jordan hasn't been resolving it since about book 6. And instead has Perrin shitting in the woods for 3 books. Or Egwene on the precipice of invasion for 4 books. Or the other harem chick taking a bath for 3 chapters. And everyone either engaging in a holding motion because the characters weren't quite in the place Jordan wanted them yet or the continuing journies and struggles of a million 100% irrelevant (usually) female characters who exist to take up pages and suck the will to live from the reader.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 06.17)

Any character can be devalued this way.

Not well written ones. Too bad Jordan doesn't have any of these. Or if he did, he's long since neutered and/or ruined them.

"You know its quite different from ours but you accept it because it is so damn easy to sink into."

Yes, our villains do shit because of rage, greed, lust, power. Theirs do shit because the devil is cool and they want to side with a guy who openly states he wants to end the world. We also have ugly women amongst our beautiful ones...and they don't all expose as much cleavage as possible, but at least they're not all bickering, man-hating bitches. Subtle nuances and all.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 14 2008, 19.27)

The Forsaken in the early books are alot like the Aes Sedai in the early books. Their looked upon in this very idealized way. Because, to the characters we are following, these people are LEGENDS. Their large then life. We know them by reputation not fact.

And what happens to both of them when we actually meet them? Their far less then the legends would have us believe.

This is lame, half-assed fanboy rationalizing. He dropped the ball and turned his villains into pussies and his superheroes into whiney, incompetent bitches. It was stated as fact that the Forsaken took down civilizations and the Aes Sedai have been king-makers and powers behind the thrown for centuries. But it quickly becomes apparent that the Forsaken couldn't inspire fear in the heart of a 5 year old bed-wetter (yeah, I've used that one before) and the Aes Sedai aren't competent enough to run a 7-11. Its not putting a real face on the myth and legend, its crap writing and characterization contradicting prior statements of fact.

Been a while since I've had a good Jordan rant. I like it.

Baseless whining is what every Jordan character does...continually. The Aes Sedai couldn't manipulate a remote control and the Forsaken would get outwitted by retarded chimps. And it has nothing to do with hip or trendy. There is simply ALOT to hate in the series and I'm only skimming the surface. Honestly, I could get into a great deal more of it, redundant, obnoxious, and overabundant female characters aside, but for the maturity of the characters. Or more specifically, the lack thereof. Every character from transplanted farmboy to 400 year old Aes Sedai interacts and communicates at the basic maturity level of a small child. There is almost no character that behaves, talks, or thinks like any adult I've ever encountered. I can't go 5 pages without the distinct realization that (mostly) off-screen war and strife aside, I'm really reading a children's book.

Now that was fine when I was 13 and the isolation of the naive farmboys would give them comparable levels of maturity. But there seriously has been little or no growth. Everyone still broods. Whines. Everyone is still utterly mystified by the opposite sex and thinks their buddy has a better grasp on things. The naive innocence has quickly left charming and long since delved into irritating.

And who gives a shit about all the forsaken you mention. Only a few of them actually qualify as characters. The rest are lame boogeymen with names who occasionally show up at an 'evil person's ball' and bitch at eachother. Almost none of them have done anything relevant and those who have tried are typically smacked down by book's end. For a while there it really became some monster/forsaken of the week bullshit each book.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 01.55)

I did not bring up asoiaf. Quit saying I did.

Someone said that WoT was inferior to Martin's series and you asked if that statement applied to world building and magic systems as well. (and to justify it) You're pretty much incorporating a direct aSoIaF comparison into your post implicitly and probably even explicitly.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 14 2008, 01.14)

QUOTE (arya_underfoot @ Jan 12 2008, 19.43)

dont start WoT expecting something similar to asoiaf. WoT is clearly and significantly inferior in almost every criteria u can use to judge fantasy series.

Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?

You weren't the first to bring up asoiaf, but you did very much bring it up. And asked for a rather asinine comparison (magic systems? As if that's relevant in the least) as a defense of WoT.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 01.55)

In developing science WoT is inferior to all Asimov books. What precisely was the point you were trying to make with it?

I can't speak for him, but I suspect its to ask what precisely was your point in comparing magic systems between asoiaf and WoT. (considering that magic plays an infinitely more limited role in asoiaf and all) And perhaps to point out how absurd such a comparison is on its face. Asoiaf has very little to do with magic so pointing out the lack of a codified magic system as some sort of comparative flaw is like sneering at Duluth for having a worse football team than the Dallas Cowboys when Duluth does not in fact have a football team.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 01.55)

And their weaponization was by an expert firework maker who has been working on the field for quite some time. Rand, incidentally, doesn't even know of these weapons.

And their existence and hinted weaponization began in about book two and has been hanging around with almost no progress until the most recent book. That is what we call plot progression in Randland. And due to the peculiar tendency of every major character to never communicate relevant information at a time when it might actually be useful, we can further manufacture artificial tension and move things along at the desired snails pace because if people started behaving rationally, this flimsy artifice called a plot would collapse around our heroes.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 01.55)

So you basically read a scene out of context, saw that it was set in a bathroom, ignored the events that do happen, ignored the concequences of the conversations that occur, and decided the scene was complete crap? Way to go.

What exactly was there out of context. There's about a hundred pages that take place in a bathtub where Elayne obsesses about an uninteresting and barely relevant sideplot that's been dangling for a couple of books with no progress and by the end of the book, there's still nothing done on the matter. It displays all the hallmarks of ineptness that the previously poster pointed out. Jordan's sprawling, uncontrollable narrative. Inclusion of almost pointless minutie and sideplots barely relevant to the main plotline. His inability to force any resolution whatsoever. And his fetish of girls taking baths together. (not quite up there with his cleavage, spanking, and skirt smoothing fetishes, but its around the vicinity)

You're acting like this is some heavily nuanced, subtle masterpiece that demands close inspection and analysis. Its really, REALLY not.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 02.55)

Are The Others a slow moving plot, progressionless and stupid plot in ASOIAF because they're brought up in book 1, but aren't even resolved by book 4?

Actually yes. At the moment, they're largely irrelevant to the existing story and have a direct impact thus far on exactly one PoV. (two if you count Sam) Thankfully the rest of the story (book four excepted) has been infinitely more interesting than frozen boogeymen to the north, complete with intricately woven plots and intrigues and well developed, compelling characters. Martin's books may eventually be about frozen zombies but its not right now. And what it presently is about is interesting and moving along at a steady pace. (like I said, Feast excepted. I could give you an equally long, quite critical slamming of that one if you'd like)

WoT is and always has been about the final battle between Satan and the dragon. The books have gone out of their way to emphasize how comparatively weak and ill-prepared humanity was for this struggle and the much hinted cannons were supposed to go a decent way towards evening this margin. They were however hinted at and than ignored for 9 books or so. Now if this were an isolated occurrence, it wouldn't be much of a problem. But its used to show a pattern of plot ineptness that Jordan has displayed for about 5-6 books now. Its been heavily hinted that M is coming back, but no real progress til the last book. Fireworks into cannons in book 2, no progress til this book. A note in book 5 or 6 supposedly mentioned the possibility of cleansing, no progress til an out of the blue finale bereft of any real buildup or foundation several books later. Conflict in the white tower, continually delayed for 3+ books and still not resolved. Faile captured for 3 books or so before resolution. The Evil Aiel sticking around for about 5 books longer than they needed to be. Nobles in Camelot (yeah, different name. Forgot it. Sue me) sitting around sucking their thumbs until the most recent book.

Jordan left a ton of shit dangling not because of any real literary vision but because he simply lost control of the story.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 02.55)

Really, wtf are you even doing in this thread if your only gonna bring up "arguments" (if I have to denigrate the word by applying it to the shit your writing) who's backing is essentially "Because I says so!".

Its a WoT thread. Some people were making some incredibly stupid defenses of the books. I responded. Last I checked negative criticism was just as valid as positive.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

What do you mean by this? Give me one example of this occuring?

Read any WoT fansite encyclopedia. They'll be happy to tell you how each individual kingdom in Randland is a direct derivative of one or more real world cultures. From the knives everywhere, honor loving, duel happy punks down south, to the chronic mask wearers a bit further north, and around the same area we have the scandilous, latex wearing equivilent sluts of some other place. Tear is happy with its castes. Some more standard northern/western European fair in the mid-countries. With some of the northerners doing the whole marriage dot thing with some unusual hairstyles. For kingdoms that have the obvious amount of contact and proximity that these do, I'd say these differences are a bit much. You may disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that they were put in there because RJ wanted a little bit of everything and thought it'd be neat, not because it really makes any sense or serves a practical purpose.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Well since this never happens, it seems clear you've invented your own WoT appendix and stuffed it with names from ancient myth, all with the aim of making pointless accusations.

Seriously, Artur Hawking isn't supposed to be King Arthur? Camelyn isn't Camelot? Eh, what the hell, I'll just copy and paste.

QUOTE

* John Glenn: "Tell us about Lenn," Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars." (Eagle has landed.../Lenn may be a merger of LEM (lunar module) and Glenn)
* Salya: Sally Ride? Or Salyut, the space station [Douglas Cole].
* Moscow, ICBMs: Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of Fire that could reach around the world.
* America::Merk the other giant.
* Queen Elizabeth::Alsbet, queen of all. (Remains of British Empire/Commonwealth?)
* Mother Theresa: Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind
* Anne Landers: Anla, the wise counselor?

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Or did you fall for mamma Cauthon's strategy and believe she was actually stating historicall proven facts about the Forsaken to baby Mat?

There's a difference between not living up to the legend and not being remotely close to what was described. The fact is the forsaken are supposed to be uber evil and near all-powerful but they always get their asses handed to them by barely trained school kids whenever they have a confrontation. And their Machievellan scheming amounts to giving people headaches and talking shit at 'evil person conventions'. Of course Jordan inserted the 'Let the lord of chaos rule' plot device in book 6 so that we have an explanation for their lack of accomplishing anything.

And than there's the Aes Sedai who are as redundant in their personalities as they are in their names. All whiny, bitchy, and utterly incompetent. In fact that applies to near every woman in Randland, where every organization and culture, despite oceans and deserts that may separate them, establish their hierarchy by whoever is pushier and bitchier. And each random coven we meet will inevitably have a woman/girl whose pushier and bitchier than all the rest we've met before who will take control until we meet the next group. (Jordan follows a similar pattern with new peoples with strength in the magic and for a while was doing it with magical items)

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Again, why are you dragging Martin into this? Can't WoT be discussed for itself instead of turning it into yet another pissing contest between two series?

You dragged Martin into this (amongst others) on the specific point of world building as I pointed out in the previous post.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

And there were hints before that prepare the way for Far Madding.

There are magic sucking places that generally don't house humans and items as well. That still doesn't explain the glaring oversight of a major, entirely magic free human city that never got mentioned for 8 books until it was needed as a plot device. But I wouldn't expect an RJ apologist to see the obvious.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Misinformation and the idea of insufficient communication affecting world event.

You mean willful stupidity on the part of the major characters as a means of keeping the dangling plot strands from unraveling? They've got the historic equivilent of the cell phone with the dream thing...hasn't helped them with that communication thing.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

The idea of limits to what you can do to combat evil.

So far just about every limit and 'has never been done', 'can never been done' that RJ placed on the magic in his world has been broken. I'd say the limits are pretty much whatever RJ wants or wanted to pull out of his ass.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

That merely maintaining a status quo not only leads to stagnation but also recession.

The entire depth of economics in these books is Rand saying 'give the poor some love' in book 3 or 4. This is hardly an explored idea.

Seriously, how are any of these ideas actually explored. Whose got blind faith? The children of the light? They might as well be twirling their mustaches and sneering menacingly. How are lame, cookie-cutter villains an exploration of anything? About the only thing you list that actually explores any sort of idea is the non-violent thing, and that's primarily through a single character who they'll probably cop out and turn into a darkfriend. Honestly, you're seeing depth that simply isn't there.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

you do realize that there is a very good reason for why these women behave as if they are superios to men don't you?

RJ (self-admittedly) cannot write women and so based most of the female characters off of his wife? And there's a difference between power disparity and gender roles vs. being a complete, childish moron towards everyone with a penis you see.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

The reason some Aes Sedai choose to serve the Dark One is because he promises immortality and unquestioned power.

Lets explore the obvious flaws in this line of reasoning. Most people in Randland appear to be up on the current history, I assume most darkfriends are too. Satan had thousands if not millions of servants in the last war...he granted immortality to about a dozen that we know of. Does every darkfriend think they'll win the lottery or that the evil bad guy has had a generous change of heart?

The guy is evil. People generally do things bad things for selfish reasons. You generally won't find them doing evil for evil's sake. Sure there's a few wacko's in every bunch, but not this many.

And the immortality. Yeah, I'd do a few things for immortality. But if the guy whose offering it has expressed an intent to all but destroy the world, slaughter most of humanity, crush civilizations, and overrun just about everyplace with uglier orc stand-ins...why would I want to live forever in that? Some of these are men of power and influence, how are their ambitions served if the world they seek to have power in no longer exists? Any wealth serving evil got them rendered meaningless because there is no functioning economy, due to global societal collapse? What are all of these people lining up for? The wish-granter wants to end the world, what good will their immortality be than? No, their motivations are not the least bit plausible given the context. Just lazy writing.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Surely you don't mean to say that you label all antagonists as evil.

No Jordan does that for us. He calls most of them darkfriends for christs sake. The guy has painted a more simplistic, unrealistic, black and white, good vs. evil world than Tolkien ever bothered to create.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Name a fantasy without elements of magic in it, then.

What you said was essentially 'compare the magical systems'. Not 'elements of magic'. Nor 'hints of magic'. I'm simply pointing out that having a well constructed magical system is not in any way a proper barometer of the quality of the fantasy series, especially when magic plays such a minimal role in one series. It is in fact an incredibly dumb question and point for comparison.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Yes, because that is so what the characters are all about!

Considering that the only other character trait most of them display is chronic bitchiness, I'd say yeah...that is mostly what the characters are all about.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

Again, statements you fail to back up with evidence.

Are you a moron? As you seem to be accusing everyone else of...have you read the books yourself? Faile gets captured somewhere around book 7 or 8. Its about 3 books later before she's rescued. They were set to storm the White Tower around book 7...a storyline that's still not resolved. The Camelyn nobles haven't been sitting around for a couple books (or their moving armies mentioned) and finally resolved in the last book?

And Catelyn is a more realistic and interesting female character than any Jordan has ever created on his finest day. She has aspects that are unlikeable, but they're also understandable. And she is distinctively different from all the other females in the books. As is just about every other female character Martin's written whose gotten any real page time. These are characters...not irritating placeholders who exist because the author isn't sure what to do with the much more interesting main characters. (again, the ones that he hasn't already neutered)

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

As for the Aes Sedai, its pretty clear they were indeed a mostly competant organization pre Artutr Hawkwing.

No its pretty clear that RJ told but did not show. He told us that they were great, intelligent, insightful and manipulative powers that moved kingdoms by subtle scheming or sheer force of will. There was nothing that he showed us in their portrayal to suggest that any of them have ever been capable of such things. In fact every portrayal of Aes Sedai we suggests the opposite. But you're a fanboy/girl. You'll accept RJ's statements as truth and look for the little twig or two that might support your untenable position while missing the whole damned forest of obvious.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

And I've always wanted to know, why is their lack of success in direct combat taken as a sign of overall incompetance? That's like saying Tywin was incompetant since Robb would have beaten him in single combat!

For someone who doesn't want to turn this into a Martin v. Jordan pissing contest, you sure seem to be bringing up asoiaf quite alot. Tywin was a competent villain. He had an enemy...he eliminated that enemy. Not a single forsaken has managed to do that to anyone relevant. And the forsaken were some of the most powerful channelers of their time, a time with much more powerful channelers than is common today, in a time where the power was much better understood, all of whom most likely received thorough educations in its capabilities and applications. They've also used them extensively in warfare, fighting one near apocalypse already. They are fighting one powerful, yet half trained boy. A few others with significant power but even less training (Aes Sedai are not learning from Age of Legends warlords, but merely the scraps they've been able to hold onto from that much more advanced age), and a divided tower mostly filled with much, MUCH weaker cannon fodder. And yet they've achieved almost nothing.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 15 2008, 03.41)

A rant. Exactly. You sacrificed a debate for the sake of a silly rant. Says a lot about you.

What's there to debate? You've asked for a worthless, irrelevant comparison. Spent several posts now whining about how we shouldn't bring Martin into this when you in fact made the comparison. Your defenses amount to inept rationalizations. Your posts display all the hallmarks of deluded fanboyism. You start almost every response with an accusation that the other person hasn't read the series (or not closely enough), and than bitch about a lack of politeness. I could say more, but I'd rather not have this post deleted.

Just as a general comment, and I know some Martin fans might disagree, but time between volumes is irrelevant as it pertains to the quality of the series. (AKA, it doesn't apply at all to questions of quality) Feast for Crows will still be Feast for Crows if it was released 1 year or 10 years after. I won't give an author a pass if he releases shit simply because he doesn't take long to do it. If we used that standard to measure anything, Turtledove would be the greatest author who ever lived. (As it stands now I could write the first two and last two pages of every one of his chapters, as they essentially repeat the same damned things. And I largely suspect that he hasn't written a book wholly on his own in years. Probably has a closet full of 'interns' doing it for him)

The reverse applies as well, I also won't give a work undue criticism for taking too long. I'll criticize the fact that it did take forever and perhaps give the author shit for it, but the work itself stands or falls on its own merits. And if anyone came to the series today, the fact that we waited 5 years for Feast would mean less than nothing to them.

I've got other things I can do to fill a wait for any book, no matter how long. The only question is how was my experience of actually reading the damned thing. If I'm sitting there wondering when the main cast is going to grow up, when the irritating side characters are gonna fall into a giant pit and die, and when plots that were started 2-3 books before and still haven't resolved or achieved any meaningful progress will actually get going...well, that's not a good sign.

I've got my worries with martin after Feast. But its one book out of 4, the first three arguably being the best bit of epic fantasy the genre has ever seen, so I don't really worry too much yet. Martin is a much more talented writer, with stronger prose and a finer, more nuanced grasp of characterization and storytelling. He'd literally have to try to fuck things up to have a run of ineptness as long and as bad as Jordan. So yes, I'll compare the near completed series to the half completed series because the worst of Martin is better than the best of Jordan. And I actually liked some of Jordan's earlier efforts.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 15 2008, 08.39)

Not because she has "cooties" but because he really doesn't want the responsibilty of saving the world.

If he was trying to avoid responsibility he quite simply wouldn't be there. But he is there and is engaging in a courtship ritual that's about as mature as hitting the girl on the playground, running away and coming back again. We're nearly a dozen books into this and every major character is still in whiny denial mode of the eventual role they'll have to play. I can only take so much childish brooding.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 15 2008, 08.39)

Rand's problem was that he was just as much in love with all 3 women and he felt that was unfair to all of them as he is fated to die quite soon. Perrin was married by the end of book 5. What is this "cooties" thing coming from anyway?

Rand's problem is that Jordan couldn't decide which lover to give them so in a bit of masturbatory geek wish fulfillment, he gave them all of them. Than he wrote all the women to inexplicably have no real problem with that fact. And the cooties? Once more back to the very immature character interactions that are a hallmark of this series from the very beginning (when it was understandable) to the end (where its absurd). Adult lovers expressing their hatred of eachother before one carrying the other off and spanking her, at which swoons for the next couple hundred pages. Each main protagonist insisting they know nothing about women and that their friends are so much more skilled with them. Mat's saga as a 'pet' where he continually shouted to himself that he wasn't a pet, but kind of grew into the role, and internally railed against it and so on and so forth. Males are all woolheads and the general lack of communication between the sexes...or anyone for that matter. Each group of women fighting to be pushier and bitchier than the next. There really is not a single adult relationship in the entire series. None of them have once dealt with relationships in a mature, realistic manner.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 15 2008, 08.39)

Rand was told that he would go mad and die early in the series but he went ahead with his plan anyway

And its been more than heavily hinted that he'll be revived somehow. And even if he does die, its not like he's sacrificing anything. A: Give up and let the world be conquered by satan, all your friends and loved ones destroyed, and eventually you get killed too. B: Fight and probably die, but most of what you cherish will probably survive if you win. Gee, let me think.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 15 2008, 08.39)

He made the Black Tower around the very idea {by accident} that if you should die but the world survive then it's a good trade. Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith, he doesn't want to lead and especially he doesn't want to kill but he's very good at all three. Mat has given up his simple life of gambling and womanizing to become a general and a member of a royal family.

I know Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith. He's whined about it every other page for 5 or so books now. Mat the same. And frankly, its damned irritating. 'We can't live our simple, anonymous lives because fate has greater things in store for us'...boo fricken hoo!! Seriously, after the first couple years...you probably get over that and start to accept reality. But Mat still pretends that he doesn't speak the old tongue or have generals whispering in his ear. Rand doesn't explain anything to anyone even though it could smooth a number of misunderstandings and potentially lead to some useful discoveries. And Perrin has spent the last few books wife obsessed, so he's been less than useless himself. For once I want a damned fantasy protagonist that says "Savior of the world and ruler of nations? that's kinda cool" or at the very least "Ya know, I didn't like being a hick farmboy all that much, this is MUCH better!"

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 15 2008, 08.39)

Jordan had to get Mat, Perrin and Rand where they ended up in book 11 so he had to set up the plot threads to end about there for each character. True, it would have been better if he wrote the whole thing out at once but that would have meant Jordan would have had to finish book 11 before publishing book 8.

No, it would have simply meant that Jordan structure the story differently to ensure no 5 book dry spells bereft of meaningful progress. The fact is there are very few interesting things left in his world. Rand is sort of interesting, but he's been almost chronically absent from most of the last several books. The Black Tower is interesting, but it hasn't had more than a few pages devoted to it since its inception. Jordan has been deathly afraid of showing these things for whatever reason and instead fills pages with redundant, irrelevant Aes Sedai/Knitters/Sea-bitches/Wisewomen pursuing plots that we'd long since forgotten about and never cared about in the first place.

But if it was all about getting the characters in the right place to launch the big finale, and if we accept that their current placement is 'the right place', our only question is could Jordan have gotten the characters to where they are in less time? And the answer is abso-fricken-lutely. Faile was a fricken rescue. That could have been completed the book after it happened. There has not been enough relevant progress with the White Tower storming to justify a second book, that could have been completed as well. Cutting a chunk of Mat's courtship? Please god can we?!! And the Camylan noble thing...did anyone still realize that was going on pre-bath? Quickly and easily finished. And Rand has cleansed the taint...only remotely relevant thing he's done since about book 7.

All of this shit, all of it could have been rapped up with characters in place by book 8 or 9. Easily.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 14.54)

Most peoples complaints have so been been pretty dumb or completely uninformed (see EHK's rants).

Stick your thumb out. Lick the tip. Sit on it. Seriously, where the fuck have I displayed a lack of knowledge of the series anywhere in my posts?

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 14.54)

And the fact that no WOT thread on this board is capable of going more then 2 pages before a people start shiting all over the series and how awful it is, is just tiring.

If we didn't have to deal with naive, oblivious, fanboy defenses all the damned time, we probably wouldn't shit on it as much. Seriously, I was gonna let this thread go until I read some of the ridiculous crap in it. Now are you defending it because the work is good and actually deserves the defense on the merits? Or is this simply some backlash against what you perceive to be some unfair, lynchmob persecution? When the discussion of anything stops being an (attempted) objective argument on the merits and starts to amount to desperate rationalizations for failings that they refuse to acknowledge...I get a bit irritated. No matter the work of art or medium.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 16.02)

That's laughable. You know all that epic fantasy floating around these days? Like ASOIAF and PON and The First Law and so on? Wouldn't be here without Jordan.

Which doesn't say jack shit about any existing innovation. WoT essentially starts as a near retelling of LotR (it was intentional and Jordan admitted as much. Doesn't excuse it) and has more fantasy cliches than you can shake a stick at. It did repopularize the epic fantasy genre and made possible many of the much better authors and storytellers who have come around lately. It did not innovate much of anything.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 15 2008, 16.02)

but in many ways is a far more generic story.

What happened to your earlier comment? I thought they were all fairly generic stories when you break it all on down. And in fact just about any story in any genre in any medium can be simplified to a sentence if you really want to. But as with anything, truly unique ideas are rare, available basic story concepts limited, and its all about execution. At which Martin excels and Jordan fails.

QUOTE (diabloblanco18 @ Jan 15 2008, 19.42)

but his "innovation" of the explicitly defined magic system seems plausible enough.

I think Dungeons and Dragons beat him to it.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 16 2008, 06.51)

If you want an example of something different, I'd bring up Bakker's series(es).

I'd bring up Bakker's series as an excellent example of what the phrase 'exploring an idea' actually means. Other posters have mentioned that Jordan explores some...bullshit. If he does, its only in the most superficial sense. He is first, foremost, and almost exclusively telling a story. Any and all examination of most potential moral implications in the book are negated by the fact that he has set up an almost exclusively black and white world with sides of good vs. ultimate, unquestioned, self-identified and irredeemable evil. Maybe if he didn't start writing during the era of Tolkien rehash = booksales Jordan could have come up with something better, more nuanced and realistic. But he didn't. He created an incredibly simple tale with the sides rather bluntly drawn out, the morality clear, and most people almost going so far as wearing black or white hats to identify themselves for good or ill.

The characters who don't fit into that simple scheme? Padan Fain, who is a different kind of evil and actually interesting character. Too bad he's been absent for so long. The Whitecloaks who couldn't be more clumsily drawn if he tried. Almost all of them unrealistically arrogant, stupid, and petty. And maybe the Seanchan.

Honestly, this is baffling to me. How can you...how can anyone read a book where the villains call themselves 'friends of the dark', openly side with a satan promising apocalyptic war and overrunning the world with Orc stand-ins and take it seriously? When the only reward is potential immortality in a shit, crumbled world that may or may not get destroyed, how can you buy thousands of people from all cultures and societies buying into such nonsense and essentially devoting themselves to evil or evils sake?

How can you not cringe when characters shout 'Lights!' and call eachother woolheads? This isn't a call for excess profanity, but the fact is a single, forceful curseword can be a hell of alot more expressive than a million kiddie variations. Do you guys like reading about the adventures of some random Aes Sedai whose name you can't pronounce but looks like all the others, whose distinguishing personality trait (if any) you've long since forgotten, but she tends to behave like all the others. Don't you ever flip a dozen or a hundred pages forward hoping for tidbits of Rand, The Black tower, maybe the Slayer or Fain...only to find that its the same repetitive Ajah'd twits?

Do you ever sit there frustrated as the characters enter dreamland or have the chance for a long delayed encounter and exchange none of the information that might actually be useful to the other and drive the plot along? You don't get underwhelmed when the long awaited meeting of the first false dragon and the real ones amounts to 'Well, you're him?...you suck, lets go' and is literally over in 5 pages?

And I've barely touched on my biggest problem with the series. The basic immaturity of the characters. I mean what are you seeing that I'm not? To me most of these characters started off as children and 10 books later all of them, even 300-400 year old Aes Sedai, still act, interact, and communicate like children. Are you not seeing this? Do you think they're having mature, realistic, adult interactions more often than not? I guess I can't knock it if someone finds this sort of interaction quaint or enjoyable, but please tell me you at least see it.

Its clear that I don't like WoT. Its also obvious that I have a negative opinion of it as a work of literature and fantasy. I might have a problem with what I perceive to be stupid opinions, but I generally don't get too heated as long as they're well thought out. And often don't give a shit even when they're not. But what does get me are stupid arguments. And those I respond quite severely to.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.51)

QUOTE (Guarneri @ Jan 15 2008, 16.31)

If people like Jordan, I do not think they are morons.
If they consider Jordan's work to be a masterpiece of writing, genius, brilliant, or they think he has a talent for characterization, plotting, or pacing...well, I don't consider them morons in that case so much as feel pity that most mental disorders are chronic.

But if you're the kind of person who says that everyone who disagrees with you is a moron, then, forgive me, you're sounding very much like the fans of Terry Goodkind.

Case in point; he never said, hinted, or implied anything of the sort. He just said that if someone believes Jordan is a masterpiece, than they probably have mental deficiencies. Nowhere does he suggest that he holds such opinions upon any other work in any other medium. There is nothing to suggest that this is his response to all or even a minute fraction of his disagreements. Simply this one, single situation that we know of. And if we remove WoT from the comment, haven't we all made this sort of statement or at least held (and left unexpressed) this opinion of others who praise works of absolute shit as if they were picasso's? If someone came in here saying that 300 was the greatest work of film-making art since Citizen Kane, won't you think they're a moron? Liking the film? Understandable. Calling it fun and even decently made? Why not. But a masterpiece? That's making an objective statement of fact, one that is absurd on its face, that simply can't be accepted. Its gone beyond like or dislike. And its also a statement that simply can't be fairly made about WoT. And anyone who does make it...well, its than perfectly fair to question their capacity in a number of areas.

Seriously, I see this ad hominem bullshit and idiotic misrepresentation or gross exaggeration of other peoples positions a thousand times a day on the fricken internet. (yeah, yeah, guilty of it myself with the fanboy shit. Sue me) Each time it makes me want to pull the rest of my hair out. Its crap like this that annoys the hell out of me. Most of your arguments are nonsensical crap and you tend to begin and end each one with some comment about the person's lack of reading comprehension. You've made inapplicable comparisons. (we covered that one)

You also argue from the perspective that the books are reality. I'm not saying that you think WoT is real, but you tend to begin things from the premise that decisions Jordan made in storytelling are legitimate and right , than look for points that might rationalize it. This is the hallmarks of fanboys everywhere. The inability to look at their favored piece of art with reasonable objectivity. For example:

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.40)

2)About the reinvention: You must realize that the making of Cuendillar is not difficult at all. The basic need for making it is strength in Earth. Even weak women can make cuendillar, as long as they are strong in earth. The rarity of cuendillar cannot possibly have been because of the difficulty of making it, since Egwene describes it as a simple weave, and even Novices are doing it.

If it truly is not difficult at all, its that way not because it takes strength in the earth, but because Jordan decided to make it that way. You need to approach these things from an outsiders perspective to be taken seriously. Does this specific occurrence or plot twist make sense given our own understanding of how things work in the real world or with the context the author developed? Does the author's own context itself make sense? If you're not asking these questions in the analysis of a work, you've lost the ability to make an objective (reasonably) judgment and have drifted off into fandom territory.

Now what has been setup? This ability has been lost since the Age of Legends. Thousands of years of Aes Sedai have known of the existence of the material, that it is made from power, but have been unable to create it. Earth power is rare, but presumably a number of Aes Sedai throughout history have had it. And if you're correct in the fact that it doesn't take much power, presumably many at least had the ability to figure it out. None did. Fine, Egwene hasn't been indoctrinated into the rigid, unofficial White Tower rules of what can and can't be done and managed to rediscover some old tech.

But

SPOILER: spoilers

doesn't it stretch credibility a bit when this one little group of super-friends rediscovered not only this, but the lost ability to make ter'angreals, bested the undisputed dreammaster of the Age of Legends in her 'own domain' with little prior experience there (kind of like wiping out Freddy in the second scene of Nightmare on Elm Street), did the previously impossible by restoring power to those who had been neutered, rediscovered traveling. Or the fact that each one of them has some distinct, incredibly rare, or even unheard of talent that manages to be quite useful at various moments?

Now the fan would start talking about how previous healers or would be makers didn't have an A'dam to examine or test their theories with, that thousands of years of Aes Sedai never figured this out because the 'way things have always been done' enforced artificial limits on what they believed was and wasn't possible, or even reach out for the most overused plot device in the history of fantasy and say they're Ta'avern and this shit happens.

But someone looking objectively would simply note that yeah, its highly unrealistic, even to the point of absurd, that a couple of children only a few years into using the power at all have made countless discoveries lost for thousands of years that a White Tower filled with hundred year old 'experts' never came close to discovering. And that this just might be a sign of some fairly weak storytelling. Ditto for Rand's mini-Renaissance/industrial revolution apparently starting at his university. I'm sure Rand's not the first one to start a university/research facility within the last millennium, surely its stretching credibility just a bit for all of these discoveries to start popping out at once. Maybe you can explain one or two away, but all of them? Its a bit absurd that the entire world was stagnant for a thousand years than Rand and friends come all and new discoveries start popping out like bunnies. At least Rand has a plausible explanation for all the things he learned. For most of them, the girls really don't.

To sum it up, you don't appear to be able to separate story from storytelling in your discussion of WoT. Just because Jordan wrote it a certain way does not mean it makes sense or can't be an illogical stretch. And that is why its hard to take your comments seriously. (and the source of my fanboy comments) Add that atop the bad, misplaced arguments and misrepresentations of others arguments...and that's pretty much why i've reacted the way I did to your posts.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

Well, all we know about the Others since book one is that they're made of ice, control the dead and they might be evil. And that's from the Song of Fire and Ice Prologue to be exact. And who isn't just waiting for the Freys to "fall into a giant pit and die"? And Bran, Sansa and Arya certainly have "to grow up." That was the point of the 5 year gap as I understand it.

But are you talking about Song or the WoT? I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not.

The others have yet to be developed, but the story thus far isn't really about them. And what it has been about has been extremely entertaining, intricately woven, and well written with a cast of complex and compelling characters...so I'm giving him a pass on this one. Honestly who wins the throne of Westeros and how they win it will probably always be a more interesting story for me than the ancient icy zombies up north. Mankind v. Others seems more your standard generic fantasy fare...you can have it.

And you seem to be missing the point on the 'wanting the characters to die' part. I want them offed not because they've done despicable things, but because they're irritating, poorly written characters. Now the old Frey is quite simply an awesome character. One that you absolutely love to hate. Those kinds of characters are priceless. Honestly, I'm secretly pulling for him to outlive every major character in the series sans Littlefinger. Those that need to die? Anyone with tits in Jordan's world....and most of the characters without em too.

And what amount of growing up do Bran, Sansa and Arya need to do? Bran at 5-6 in the beginning of the first book (or whatever age) already had more maturity and insight than any of the WoT main cast at book 10 and beyond. Arya is progressing into a sweet little sociopath. And Sansa's naive fantasy world has been shattered and she's well on her way to becoming LF's manipulative apprentice. Granted I'm not really a fan of child characters in books and I'd prefer them aged a bit, but their current age isn't too much of a distraction and they're by no means irritating. And yeah, I was very much knocking WoT. I thought that much was obvious.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

It's a completely impossible situation outside of fantasy but I imagine that even you would become whiny if your choice about your fate was removed.

Their basic reaction might be understandable (of course how they express it is irritating and childish, but that's besides the point), but noone wants to read that shit for thousands of pages on end. And most people would eventually get over it and accept it, probably a great deal quicker. That said, its also irritating because its the continuation of yet another modern fantasy cliche. Hell, its not even a purely fantasy one anymore. The random peasant who came from nothing suddenly gets great power thrust upon him but really doesn't want it. For some unexplained reason they must never want the power. They're somehow morally deficient if they do. And this has led to countless protagonists in films and books that I want bash in the head with a baseball bat. Is it a crime for a main character to have a bit of ambition? Maybe in real life the person who would shrug off power is a rare commodity, but in fiction they're a dime a fricken dozen. Get rid of them. Angst is not entertaining.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

Polygamy in royal families is not unheard of and it's a main part of Song's plot so maybe you just ease off that.

In some historical royal families. Not these royal families. And none of the girls (besides maybe Avienda) come from a culture where sharing the boytoy is practiced or accepted. That they would simply accept sharing the husband and remain good friends is contrary to the culture and family life they were brought up in. And the ease with which they accept it is absurd given that context. And the spanking example was in fact Suian and Byrne.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

And Ishamael offered Rand eternal life if he choose to join the Dark One so Rand actually choose to die.

The serpent on the vine says 'serve me, help me destroy the world, and I'll grant you eternal life!'...please, that's not a choice.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

I thought that Rand, Mat and Perrin who reached that conclusion by the end of book 11 but what do I know?

Acceptance by BOOK ELEVEN!??? You see no inherent problem with that?

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

Rand was absent from the last two because of what he did in book 9.

This is the inability to separate story from storytelling that I was talking about in my previous post. There were no stone tablets that said Jordan's next book had to tell the tale of everything that happened right before, during, and immediately after the cleansing. There was no pressing need to tell us how the bright lights in the sky affected every random character in every far corner of the world. It was a choice by the author and a rather poor one. For a series continually bashed for lack of plot progression, criticized for the minimal amount of time that actually elapses during each subsequent book...to actually go backwards in time for that next book...talk about the ultimate slap in the face to fans everywhere.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

The Black Tower is central to one of Jordan's major Forsaken plot points, to dwell on it would be to give away a really good trap for Rand.

A trap that could have been sprung a couple books ago. Or if not, since most of us have a pretty good general idea of what's gonna happen with the tower, why not actually show us how it gets built up and how it develops. But no...storylines and characters that might actually be interesting and/or advance the overall plot are off-limits beyond a page or two here and there.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Jan 16 2008, 09.53)

I agree about the Caemlyn stuff but it was a "no dragonsworn/darkfriend" land and central to the world as it's in the center so it's ok if bloated, the Faile "rescue" was more about uniting several lands and factions than saving one woman and Mat's courtship was about 4 other countries worth of conquering for the Lord Dragon with marrying just one woman.

None of this means that it couldn't all be concluded in a book. Stop Perrin's constant muttering of Faile every other sentence and quit telling us what kind of perfume Berelin is wearing. Don't stop for grain and weavels. Get in contact with the 'helper rescuers' a few pages in instead of 2 books later, get a plan and execute by books end. Don't discuss the pagentry and politics of the nobles for 100 pages in a bath. Say the nobles are here, have the war, spend the last 10 pages or so with the aftermath. And if you can't get a love story going in 500 pages...you're really a pretty worthless author. And who gives a shit if the White Tower deals with the forsaken? Why does that mean it should have almost no measurable progress for 4 whole books now? You mean Egwene couldn't be captured and pull all of her 'I'm the real Ammy!' crap 1 book after her army entered the portal?

This isn't hard. Simply cut out the irrelevant, extraneous characters and side plots. The redundant meetings and interactions we've read about a thousand times already. And get the damned story moving.

Seriously, alot of MUCH better authors have put a hell of alot more content in 3 books. Some of them even 1. And your telling me this shit can't be done in 4 or 5? What nonsense.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

Well again, you're ignoring that the Forsaken also had millions of channelers working under them to effect the plans they came up with. Also a lot of technology which is unavailable now.

Extremely powerful even in their own time. Know much more about the power. Were trained and educated in much more of the power. 3,000 years ago they were competent enough to be the arch-villains leading Satan's armies. Now they are routinely whooped on by kids without inflicting a relevant casualty. All the rationalizations in the world will not change this fact. They're incompetent. And barely a threat.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

And how do you miss that the various channeleing organizations have very different ways of establishing heirarchy? It doesn't matter how pushy an AS is, its only her strength that matters.

He's told us that different female groups have various means of establishing heirarchy. He's shown us that when it comes down too it, bitchiness and pushiness is all that matters.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

Why should this be mentioned?

Because a magic free human city is a pretty major, unique and remarkable feat. its simply something that would have come up over 5-6 books. Not suddenly pulled out of the author's ass when he needs to manufacture tension for a main character who's grown too powerful.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

See, this is what I meant when I said you make baseless allegations. Aram was a Darkfriend? Where did you get that?

I never said he was. But fan boards have had a 'Is he or isn't he?' section of speculation on Aram since the character was first introduced. I merely said that Jordan will (or would have) probably cop out and ruin one of his only truly ambiguous characters by making him yet another 'evil for evils sake' type.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

where he says that many women have told him they were surprised he was not a woman since he wrote women characters so well?

If this was ever actually said by a real person...that person is a moron.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

As for a normal Darkfriend or a Black Sister, they hear the same stuff passed down the grapevine. Such promises have been made for centuries.

You make a good point. Satan boy has been making these promises for centuries even when he was in absolutely no position to grant them. Yet there have been oodles of 'evil for evils saker's' who have worn the silly black hats even though, short of being gibbering idiots, they must have known that Satan boy wasn't seeing freedom in their lifetime and couldn't grant them shit. "do unspeakable evil acts and I might remember you a thousand years from now and revive you once I'm able to"...yeah, the sales job is even more absurd in past generations. Not only is the concept not the least bit realistic...its pretty damned silly.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

its you who's labelling every antagonist as a Darkfriend.

No, I never did. But the fact is most of them are. And the rest are either darkfriend dupes or utter morons.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

So, if some random author has only hints of magic in his series, and then suddenly, with no warning, resolves a major plot issue with "Power spell 1" which destroys a whole army in one go, we cannot accuse him of misusing magic and lacking any system?

You were using that standard to compare WoT to Martin. Martin has never done 'power spell 1'. Until he does, you've made another utterly pointless statement.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

so as to reduce the suspension of dusbelief expected

You've already suspended disbelief to the point of lunacy with your defenses of WoT, why would you pretend to give a shit about it when it comes to Martin? Tyrion could shit dragons tomorrow and take over Westeros and its still be more plausible and realistic than half the shit in Randland.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

So Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve (the major female characters of WoT) are all merely bitchy and bull their braids?

Yes.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

So when Egwene feels sad that soldiers will die for her cause, she's being bitchy? When Nynaeve is devastated and furious that youngsters from her village were plucked away from their innocent lives and thrown into Aes Sedai machinations, and intends to sacrifice herself for them, she's being bitchy? Whenever Elayne displays her tendency to play the diplomat, she's being bitchy?
Basically, in all scenes these characters have been in, they've been bitchy?

Yes, yes, yes...and yes.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

As for Elayne's stroyline, no the nobles have not simply been sitting around. The six houses that supported Dyelin have been down south preventing the Aes Sedai rebels from crossing into Andor. Those beseiging Caemplyn were, well besieging it, while shoring up their own support and also undermining Elayne by making deals with mercenaries working for her so that they'd betray her at the right time.

Blah, blah, blah...Elayne has rival claimants and needs to solidify her reign. Its an incidental sideplot of only the most minor significance to the overall plot. Most of the characters involved are neither interesting nor necessary. Have the magic bath of exposition a few books earlier, cut it to 2-3 pages, fight the damned war, storyline finished in under 50 pages.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

As for the Rebels, Egwene had no power to order an attack till book 8.

This shit is getting annoying. If she didn't have the pull to order the assault, its because RJ wrote it that way. If he wanted her to have it, she would have had it. It didn't have to be written the way it was. It could have very easily and convincingly been written the other way. But the fact is 4 books ago (or so) a big army marched through a portal to invade. And 4 books later they aren't even close to resolution. And all that's happened in the interim is some bitching, a big chain, capture...and some more posturing and bitching. How you can call this progress I have no idea.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

In the end, the the last three books were slower than before. That scarcely means nothing happened, as you claimed.

Yes it does.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Sure as hell isn't fact.

Yes it is.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

Whenever they (exceptions mentioned before) confront a foe who isn't cowed down by their reputation, they're caught wrong footed.

Which raises a couple questions. How did they develop that reputation when they're all moronic twits? And how do they maintain that reputation when everyone they encounter directly soon realizes that they're all moronic twits? Gossip spreads. Even in medievalville.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Jan 16 2008, 01.05)

Well lets see... insingle combat, with the exception of Aginor, none have shown any incompetance.
Balthamel died fighing a Nyn, and took him down too.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...they all fought. They all lost badly. They didn't inflict a single casualty on a major character nor disrupt any major plans. Good always win. Maybe good overpowers. Maybe someone saves the day in the nick of time. But shit always turns out fine and dandy and evil is either killed or sent home with pants thoroughly pissed. They're as threatening as evil, toothless hamsters.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 16 2008, 13.56)

Honestly, the more I think about ASOIAF, the more I think many people may end up disappointed with the series. Considering Mankind vs The Others is in many ways the points of the whole thing.

That's heavily hinted sure, but we don't know that. The invasion of the others may simply end up being just one more factor the rival claimants must contend with as they vie for supremacy. It'll still be a threat, but that doesn't mean everyone leaps into some common brotherhood for humanity to fight the northern surge.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Feb 13 2008, 02.01)

To read WoT without hating the women, you've to understand where they're coming from. And Jordan does a good job of showing us why women in Randland behave as they do.

I've seen no explanation for why nearly every woman in the series is a pushy, arrogant, bitchy, dumb as a brick, incompetent man-hater. Sure their semi-dominant status is understandable given their power, but once their universal and complete ineptness is revealed, its a bit hard to grasp how they got where they are in the world. Also, what environmental factor explains an entire continent of grown men and women whose most mature relationship reaches about the 6th grade level?

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Feb 13 2008, 10.55)

If you think all the women in WoT are all the things you said, then prove it by some examples, then we'll talk.

How about I prove it by consensus? Nearly everyone in this thread and a thousand other RJ threads believe or admit this. Maybe with slightly less critical or damning language, but this is a near universally known and understood problem with RJ's writing. And denial of it isn't that great for the credibility.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Feb 13 2008, 10.55)

where you make broad, sweeping statements that I'll rebut with particular examples

You have a quaint imagination. Your arguments amount to internal rationalizations for writer error or incompetence. As such, they're barely worth addressing.

I actually read alot of the Crossroads of Twilight reviews because, quite frankly, they were infinitely more entertaining than the actual book. And the vast majority of the 5 stars I read were still bashing the book. More than a few were 'I'm giving this 5 stars for the reviews, which had me laughing my ass off' or some variation on that. It was extremely hard to find any legitimate praise of that book anywhere. Even the usual fanboys were reluctant to defend it. Think the strongest defense i'd seen was 'It was a transition book and now that things are aligned, the pot can pick back up.'....which sort of disregards the fact that the entire book. Literally all of it could never have happened and not a single thing would be lost in the next book.

Everyone else pretty much covered the prove it v. consensus stuff. Yes we could backtrack through 10,000+ pages of text to rehash arguments that have been done to death a thousand times over. But thankfully, I don't have to bother. Because there are some things that are simply self-evident to most rational people. Brando is a great actor. Godfather is a great film. Sequels are almost never as good as the original. It doesn't feel the same with a condom. They stopped making good cartoons after Pokemon. The Prequels blow. Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. Starcraft is the best RTS game ever made. And of course...RJ cannot write women.

QUOTE (fionwe1987 @ Feb 13 2008, 13.18)

So tell me, what do you mean by internal rationalization?

I mean automatically accepting the premises the author set up at face value without any objective critique from an outsider perspective. Instead of asking 'does this make sense?', going out of your way to find some context that allows it to make sense. Instead of asking 'Is this a badly written character?', going out of your way to rationalize why the character is the way it is. A blatant and consistent lack of objectivity that precludes any sort of clear judgment on the matter and encourages overlooking even the most obvious of flaws. I can sum it up in one word, but the mods don't like that word being tossed around, so I'll hold off.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 13 2008, 21.21)

You know, from those reviews, I do notice that there's a disconnect between people who think that the series is just suppose to center on the Dragon Reborn and not the world itself which is a main complaint of Crossroads.

I don't think 'blame the reader' is the most effective rationalization. It wasn't a bad book because the reader's had unreasonable expectations. Hell, their only expectations were to have something readable that just might advance the plot a bit. It was a bad book because it was a bad book. Even the most ardent RJ defenders generally won't deny this.

As for reader expectations...I don't think its too much to ask to give the main protagonist some screen time. It sure as hell beats the dozens upon dozens of redundant, forgettable Aes-Se-bitches that he had filling the pages instead. We've already had book upon book of 'The world'. We'd like some movement on that plot that decides the fate of 'That World'.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 13 2008, 21.21)

It's kind of like people thinking Martin kills off main characters in Song but in actual plot terms, the POV characters who die aren't the main characters.

Except they were the main characters up til that point in the series. There was no character that fit the main protagonist role in Game of Thrones except for Ned.

QUOTE (Poobah @ Feb 13 2008, 13.17)

Clearly you (EnlightenmentHK) don't like RJ's writing and that's fine, but if you don't actually want to have a discussion, why post in a discussion topic?

Boredom.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 14 2008, 05.15)

The plot is the unification of the world which unfortunately includes the Aes Sedai scenes, Mat's courtship with Tuon, Perrin's adventures and Elayne's story in Andor.

That is an internal rationalization. The plot doesn't have to include those things. It includes them because the author decided to go that route. There were certainly other, better choices. Or if it must include them, it could be better written, paced and thought out versions of those things. And under absolutely no circumstances do those 'things' have to last as long as they have, with as little progress as they've made. All of those plotlines had been lingering with minimal progress for 3-5 books. You think it takes a minor miracle for Egwene to take the tower, Mat to woo the girl, Elayne to smack down the nobles, and Perrin to rescue his wife in a single book? That's really not that much stuff.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 14 2008, 05.15)

"Blame the reader"? I blame the snarkers that ignore the main plot of the series.

The big showdown between good and evil that's been forgotten for most pages of the last 4-5 books?

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 14 2008, 05.15)

The Dragon Reborn's not the main protagonist

Ummm...yeah he is.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 14 2008, 05.15)

If he was the main character, the series would be called the Dragon Reborn.

This is nonsensical. Not to mention a non-sequitur and quite dumb.

QUOTE (Fatuous @ Feb 14 2008, 05.15)

Except for Dany, Jon and Tyrion. Hey, they're still there in the series {just not in Feast}. What you really mean is that Jon and Dany match Jordan's "teenagers who save the World" plot aspect so they can't be main characters in Song. And yes, I know Ned is a protagonist in Thrones but he's not the focus of the series.

There's a reason I said 'In a Game of Thrones' and not the entire series. Up to that point in the first book both Jon and Dany were too disconnected from the main storylines to be the main protagonists. Ned is the only character who qualifies for that in the first book. And he was killed. And as standard fantasy goes, that is fairly shocking. Ned is not the focus of the series, but up until that point in the series, he absolutely was.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 13 2008, 23.29)

The series didn't change, the people reading it did.

Doubtful. The series was getting some of the same flack it gets now, but was still routinely defended by its more devout fans. Crossroads was the first and only book to be almost universally panned by fans and non-fans alike. The level of unforgivingly negative criticism it received surpassed that of all the other books combined. The readers were mostly all the same. Hell, most of them even went into it with minimal expectations because of what they'd had to read before. And it grossly disappointed even the most modest of expectations. The series was bad, it got infinitely worse, and that is ALL, 100% on the author.

How did you find this forum?

Now that I think about it, I think I was a WoTMania-er as well. I know I found that site before I found this one, think I was asking for something a little edgier, a bit more adult and Martin got recommended. Long fucking time ago.

wotmania is closing its doors this summer

Always found WOTMania to be one of the worst designed message boards ever (seriously, did they ever update that shit? Haven't been around in at least 5 years), but it did lead me to this place. And to Martin in general, so it definitely had an impact. (Pretty sure I got Martin recommended to me there for the first time) Bit sad to see it go.