Jordan is a worthless dimestore hack who couldn't find an original plot, story, or character if it was growing on his ass. This will be a point by point breakdown of everything you will ever need to know about Jordan.

Plot Devices: Destiny by another name is used to put the main characters into constant danger and dire circumstances. Destiny also ensures they come out of each one of these unharmed.

Women: There are no female character's'. This is one. And it is duplicated a thousand times. Each female character is snotty, bitchy, pushy, thinks men are useless, and are defined by simple mannerisms that they repeat again and again throughout the tens of thousands of pages, just about every time Jordan can throw it in there. They are overly repetitive and 90% of them impossible to differentiate from another. And oh yeah, there are THOUSANDS of them in this book, all serving some unseen important purpose (and 98% of them are not needed for the story).

One-upmanship: Super powerful, destroy the world magical items. They're everywhere apparently. And each book, the heros find the item to end all items...and the book after that, they find one that makes the one before it look like a capgun.

And it goes on with the female character. In the first book, you find several of the most powerful 'mages' ever to walk the earth in a thousand years. And about 5 times each book after that, you find another one that is just slightly less powerful...no wait...another that is equally powerful...and yet another one that is infinitely more powerful...and one that makes the formerly powerful ones look like children. All undiscovered previously by a Secret Society that controlled all the mages and manipulated everything that has happened in the land for centuries.

Villains: Sure they start off mean and menacing...until they get their ass kicked by every runny nosed little tyke with a grudge. The first bunch could be taken out by a retarded 5 year old suffering from MS. So he created new ones...and recycled all the old ones. There's exactly 2 dead big baddies out of 11 I believe...the heros killed many more, but they keep getting recycled into difference forms. Their multiplicity is only exceeded by their thorough incompetence. They couldn't strike fear into a chronic bedwetter.

Plot Progression: One you get past the third book, there is none. I know of few others who can write a series spanning years if not more...who takes 1,000 pages to write half a day. I'm serious, he's had books that end before the point where the last book ended. Hell, his most recent book spent 600 of its 800 pages retracing what the other characters were doing during the climax of the first book. You'd be lucky to find 2-3 things of relevance to the larger story occuring in each book. Pointless.

Shades of Grey: There are none. You know that thing we love about Martin. That there is no absolute good. No absolute evil. For the most part, thats all you have in this book. Hell, the villains are self proclaimed 'Dark friends'. Why anyone would willingly invite a Satan ripoff onto earth to conquer and control, giving them a world with no comforts, luxury, or anything else...simply decay and death...is beyond me. But thats alright, characters in this book don't have motives nor do they appear to need them, they just act.

I could go on forever, but I'm tired. So I'll answer your question.

'Will I like WoT'

Answer: Not if you have taste.

Like the title says, this hurts. Despite continual disappointments I kept with WoT. No matter that every new book made me feel like I'd just eaten 20 white castle sliders, without the actual satisfaction of initially eating them. And than there was Crossroads of Twilight, the absolute last straw. A several hundred page book where 80% of it took place before the last book ended. Where the most eventful bits of plot development were Perrin shitting in the woods and Elayne taking a bath.

After that excrutiating experience I made a vow never to buy another hardcover jordan book. If I'm gonna read it, he's getting $7, not $25. And here it is, Knife of Dreams in softcover. I've heard all the praise that its a return to form and well worth the read, but its still painful. Its like I'm going out of my way to find reasons to hate this book...and the sad part, I don't have to look too far.

So far we have a dozens of indistinguishable Aes Sedai bitching at and threatening eachother like irritating catty bitches. (aka, par for the course for all of his female characters). 200+ year old former Amerlyn Siuen (I have no idea how its spelled, there are 10 other Aes Sedai with a name almost identical) whining to herself like a little school girl who thinks all boys have cooties about the general guy. Seriously, these are supposed to be the smart, mature, experienced ones and its still "OH I HATE THAT MAN BUT I CAN'T STOP THINKING ABOUT HIM!!!" We have constant 'battles of wills' that are essentially overglorified staring contests between the Aes Sedai, establishing (yet again) a heirarchy of who's 'harder' by which one flinches first. We have the constant reminder that this is little more than a kids book when those 'ear burning' expletitives shouted by the foul mouthed ones amount to 'Blood and bloody ashes!' We have a huge sword fight in the beginning whose description amounts to 'He tried the anally raped snake, than I countered with dancing buck naked through the willows followed by sitting on the beavers thumb and spinning'.

Oh and Egwene, who from all indications was a primary target of Elaida's wrath when or if she ever got her hands on her, placed as Novice instead of guillotine bait where she can conveniently manipulate things on the inside with relatively little difficulty. Still no explanation for why a 'darkfriend' would ever want to be a darkfriend. And of course Rand has cleansed the taint...2 books ago, and everyone still thinks the big explosion of magic was Foresaken. Way to not communicate to avoid, yet again, actually closing any dangling plotlines!

Fucking A! Does this get better?

I see my topic got merged. Still doing the masochism bit, and it ain't getting easier. Nearly halfway through and so far...Perrin is no longer shitting in the woods. He's getting tea to make his bowel movements more regular...and is still doing jack shit in the woods. Elayne is fighting a siege that she described while bathing in the last book. No real progress, and a continuation of the most unnecessary sideplot involving the most irrelevant characters and villains in the book. Mat is still doing nothing but an irritating courtship ritual best reserved for 12 year olds on a playground. Egwene is in the same place she was last book, having accomplished nothing. 'Pages: 350. Relevant plot progression: 0' Not a good sign.

There are bits, but they're brought in with absolutely no buildup, style, or skill. What do you need bell makers for? 'Oh, to make cannons.' One of these dangling plotlines that we'd been waiting forever for him to get moving on and he does with half a line. Not a thing about how exactly he figured out this 'great mystery' (that we knew, but he didn't) that's been sitting around for 5+ books (I think). Just did. Figuring out the greatest weapon to grace the battlefield in centuries gets half a page. Spanking/Collaring/bitching/bantering with Aes Sedai and anorexic bethroved...hundreds.

Freeing Moraine? Sure they all had the necessary information to do this about 4 books ago, but we can't expect anyone to actually communicate what they know. Not in Randland, that would destroy the plot. So Thom's got a letter that conveniently says 'Don't give this to Matt til he asks for it' as a convenient copout explanation for why it took him 5,000 pages to get to this point. Popular speculation, is Noal related to Jain Farstrider? Of course, no momentum, no discovery, just a question and answer. Than some sob story about the guy leaving his dying wife, WTF? Skilless intro and unconvincing.

It seems like he's trying to tie up lose ends, dangling (but obvious) mysteries, but he's doing it half-heartedly, just peppering it into the minutia that is the rest of the novel. If Martin ever got this lazy: As they sat and ate dinner, Sam the fat spoke up "Oh yeah, Jon. While I was down becoming a Maester they told me that your aunt was really your mother and your father Rhaegar. Ain't that neat?"

And still no Rand. Main character? We don't need no stinking main character! We shall instead fill pages with thousands upon thousands of entirely irrelevant, absolutely indistinguishable Aes Se-wise-seafol-kin-dams who will bicker like gossipy teenagers, slap, spank, and stare at eachother to establish heirarchy, each one being tougher and harder than the next. I'm honestly surprised that Jordan hasn't run out of names in the English language, real and made up, to use for his bloated cast. And has he ever heard the words show, not tell? From what he shows us they're all mouthy, cocky, self-important, whiny little bitches. What he tells us is 'Perfectly serene, unemotional face'. Sorry, somehow this isn't supported by any of the context or character he develops. And of course it applies to anything with tits in the books.

Un-fucking-bearable. I'm starting to think Goodkind wrote more realistic characters.

Whenever he starts a new chapter with some barely familiar, randomly and reduntantly named (redundant in personality and mannerisms as well) woman, my eyes glaze over. I'm barely sure if they've had a role in the previous books or if they're completely new. I just went from a Rand in Tear chapter to what appears to be a Sea Folk chapter that I simply can't bring myself to read.

About the most anti-climactic battle I've read in a while. Having a nice discussion about Ent/Ogier wedding vows and speeches, when suddenly 100,000 trollocs appear. All dispatched in a matter of moments. I gathered Rand was there with a small army, do they actually employ scouts? Even coming out of 'the ways' I find it a bit hard to believe that 100,000 man army can simply sneak up on them. Incompetent.

Implausible. 100,000+ army loaded with servants that aren't allowed to leave unescorted, sitting in the middle of a field with no actual 'home base', no supply trains to speak of, somehow managing to not starve simply by scrounging the countryside. I don't really care how hardy or resourseful the Aiel are supposed to be, this is not going to happen.

Annoying. Rand, ever impatient, explosive temper at the usual formalities and introductions that always keep him from these 'much more important' things he has to do. Yet outside of killing off a few thousand trollocs that happened to trip on him, he hasn't done shit.

Absurd. That any kingdom, country, or secret order run by characters as childish and stupid as most of the people Randland could actually thrive.

Matriarchies. His land is full of them. Part of this is plausible, since women commanded the greatest power in the land exclusively for several thousand years, its likely that similarly female dominant societies or aspects of society would pop up elsewhere. I am not buying the ridiculous abundance of sword and spear wielding women that are 'a match for any man' that seem to litter every corner of Randland. Women physically capable of fighting as frontline infantry are Brienne-esque rarities. And this disregards the fact that not a single woman in Randland seems competent to run a Dairy Queen let alone kingdoms and city states.

Time and progress. Occasionally Jordan will describe a chain of events that appear to take place over a significant period of time. Like the constant Aes Sedai pestering of tiny, anorexic girl. The overtures, attempted negotiations, so much so that she got fed up and tried to have them collared. Of course we find out later that from revelation, to pestering, to collaring all took place in the same day (though a dozen pages). Same with Matt when they discovered his channeling negator. Constant attemps to his him with magic, til one finally figured out the 'loophole' in his defenses. Period of days or weeks for this constant testing from these Aes Sedai that he goes out of his way to rarely see or deal with? Nope, about 2 days.

Call it idle bitching if you like, but this shit is bad. REALLY, really bad. I'm 500 pages in and Egwene has sent a message to her followers. Elayne has watched a single, insignificant skirmish at the walls and talked a bit. Perrin has bought tea and made an agreement with Seanchan...and Faile is still stuck with the Shaido...like she was 3 books ago. Matt has read a letter, revealed a bit of information that might have been useful to advance the plot 5 books ago, spanked a woman, and done some more courting. The same shit he was doing 2 books ago. Rand has killed some trollocs, gone to Tear to lift a siege started books and books ago that I'd completely forgotten about, sent some troops near Seanchan lands and prepares to negotiate a truce...that he's been talking about for at least a book and a half.

Maybe you see this shit as 'progress', and I can see how it might after the absolute lack of progress we've had since...forever. But he doesn't get a pat on the head just because even less happened in his more recent books. Faile is still captured. Egwene still largely in the same position she was last book and the mighty siege has so far put chains in the river and little else. Matt is still courting and still on the same fricken road. And Rand is still obsessed about the lack of time between now and the last battle, when noone (including him) seems to be doing much to move things along.

And almost no time spent on the cool, interesting shit. What's going on at the Black Tower? Why would we show you that when we can spend 500+ pages on the pointless meanderings of random Aes Sedai-wise-kin-folk? Hey, whats up with the borderlands where those Orcs and shit continually raid and where the battle will likely be faught? Why would you want to read about that when we have the gripping squabbling of nobles in Andor to discuss for 100 pages! And imagine all the interesting and illuminating discussions all our characters could have if just a single one confided ANYTHING, anything at all in any other. But shit...couldn't have mysteries if people actually spoke about these things to people who have the knowledge and understanding to actually figure them out.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 8 2007, 10.22)

He just overestimated how much he could put in every book.

Considering how little he put into the later books, I don't think this is really the case. Tor conspiracy theories aside, I think he simply lost control of the story. Once he expanded the narrative beyond the core characters and tried, through them and others, to give us a view of every major event and region in the continent, the story simply became too large to be dealt with in the tight (tighter at least), succinct narratives that the first few held. Instead of a main theme and storyline throughout a book, with the leads and side characters generally supporting that story, he began to give them all their own individual storyarcs, some with alot more to do with others. As they all had to reach a certain point before the 'main' storylines could proceed, some characters were removed almost entirely from the books struggled with minutia and filler for their sections. Instead of rapping it up, he introduced multitudes of new characters and other barely related, unnecessary tangents to fill the space. Occasionally he'd introduce a climax that would have major impact, but they became increasingly less effective and less supported. He insisted on giving us a detailed point of view from nearly every major Randland faction and culture, seemed increasingly unable to tie off ongoing, minor storylines, and eventually ended up with the rambling mess that we have today.

Sword, your points about internet opinions vs. the masses is well taken. And I generally agree to an extent. In many ways we're not very representative of the typical genre reader. But word of mouth has been a powerful, often uncontrollable marketing force for various medias since movies and mass entertainment began. And the internet is to some extent a more organized and expansive model that facilitates that 'word of mouth' spread. While Snakes is definately a major cautionary tale for relying too much on internet hype, I could equally point to the Blair Witch Project as a realization of its ultimate success. The general impression I got from reading various boards and occasional interviews, was that Knife of Dreams was a reaction to what appeared to be near universal critical bashing and fan (yes, even the true diehards) loathing for Crossroads. He seriously criticized his own work, something I don't recall seeing before, gave a definite deadline to end the series (2 books), and changed up editors. At least so I'd heard and read. I think both he and Tor were taking this matter seriously enough.

Negative reactions were widespread, at least in the visible internet community, everywhere from the WoT boards (where excessively criticizing the series could have gotten you lynched previously, it suddenly became a popular pasttime with Crossroads) to just about every Amazon review. Genre books and hell, novels in general (unless your name is Clancy/King/Grishom/etc) typically don't get major, mainstream marketing pushes. They rely on recognition of the author, reader loyalty, and word of mouth. And while Jordan has the first two in spades, widespread negative reaction does scare new readers away. And while it won't tank the series by any means, it does represent significant profit that will go unrealized. While the effect of the internet backlash would never be debilitative, anything that would threaten to take a chunk out of profits would be taken seriously, and I think both parties saw a threat in the reaction to CoT.

And on Jordan, It seems like you're trying to discredit the critic rather than defend the work. While you don't extend the charges to everyone or even most of the 'haters', you do charge that some of us despise the series because we came in there wanting to hate it and that it simply doesn't have enough torture and murder to satiate our bloodlust.

Firstly, this 'dark' theme you mention has really nothing to do with the level of on screen brutality presented by the author. While some 'darker' authors use it to good or bad effect, its not necessary to write a 'dark' novel. I think most people take 'dark' to mean a more serious, more mature story filled with realistic characters who actually behave like adults, plausible scenarios and resolutions, a grittier feel and a bit of an edge. Asking that the lead characters, who have seen more 'character building' events, death, war and bloodshed in their short lives than anyone we know, not act like 3rd graders on a playground who think the opposite sex has cooties, is not a demand for hanging deaths by bloody entrails from the victim's sliced open stomachs. Its simply asking to have them stop behaving like little kids in most situations, largely because it detracts from any tension and emotional impact that might be gained from the story. Its a call for them to behave like real people would in similar situations, not contriving unrealistic reactions or convenient information hording to keep the plot going in the pace and direction desired.

Second, I don't think that many people come into the story wanting to hate it. Hell, I didn't even and I'd make a living bashing Jordan if I could. I, like many others enjoyed the first few books, became attached to the characters and the storyline, and no matter how bogged down and messy its gotten, really want to know how it ends. Now I could just read pagelong summaries, but that's not quite the same thing as actually reading it and doesn't provide near the level of satisfaction. (usually). Also, I'd heard here and elsewhere that Knife was a return to form. That the major plot had gotten back on track and some of the magic of the earlier novels recaptured. Currently, I've found that not to be the case. I'm 500+ pages in, so I'll let you know if that changes.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

That is your opinion. It isn't based on any facts.

Are you by chance Os's girlfriend?

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

I personally think it has to do with hype and the time it takes to write a book. That way the expectations for the book go way up and people get disappointed easily. Many people also said that when they read CoT for the second time it was a lot better.
That you don't like the direction Jordan has taken with the last books doesn't mean they are bad.

What absurd nonsense. There were no expectations. At least most people around these and other boards had known not to expect much from Jordan for at least the last 2-3 books (if not more). Its not tense anticipation creating unreasonable expectations, its already lowered expectations being continually disappointed. Your statements might apply to Martin, but sure as hell not Jordan. And its not disagreeing with his direction, its the frustration at waiting on him to actually pick a damned direction. Honestly you don't think 4 books to resolve a siege is a bit excessive? Or 3 books for a search and rescue mission? Expanding the narrative to include thousands of redundant and completely expendable characters? But my mistake, that's my 'taste' ruining my judgment, it couldn't possibly be a flaw of the author.

And anyone who can read CoT twice deserves a medal. And a lobotomy.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

I think they do behave like real people and that everything is realisticly. It's a matter of taste.

So 'I hate that man, I hate that man, but I can't stop thinking about him!' is the typical behavior for a wise and experienced woman who's seen the world and been around the block more than a few times? Obedience derived by spanking is the common practice of every group of adult females throughout the known world, common amongst cultures seperated by mountains and oceans who've had minimal contact over thousands of years? Constant brooding, whining about not being a noble, secrecy often for no apparent reason but to keep the plot moving in the desired direction (especially when said info could be immensely useful to others to get that plot moving quicker). Everyone with absolutely serene, emotionless faces who act like catty bitches at eachothers throats every time they open their mouths? Or frightened little children when they get spanked a bit? That fact that what he tells us (serene vision of outward calm) is betrayed by what he shows us (constant whining, bitching, complaining). Heirarchies derived in every group of woman in his world (once more often within completely seperated cultures) derived by which one can 'stare harder' or 'bitch louder'?

Lets take it beyond that. The good PoV's constantly fretting about how their soldiers or comerades are doing, lamenting death and suffering, sorrow for the commoners. While the 'evil' (not necessarily Darkfriends) have internal dialogues about whipping people who don't bow enough, don't heat their tea well enough, or who don't grovel in the appropriate member. Even the nominal 'good guys' who are supposed to be less sympathetic are portrayed as absolutely dense, selfish, oblivious to the fricken obvious around them. (Your Lelaine's and Romanda's) We're told the Aes Sedai controlled kingdoms, toppled empires, given and taken crowns for thousands of years. But we're shown incompetent, squabbling, useless and pointless little bitches. We're told that the Foresaken manipulated, enslaved and destroyed much more advanced, enlightened, and powerful kingdoms, but we're shown the most incompetent villains since Wily Coyote.

And what about Darkfriends? What fucking incentive is there to EVER be a damned darkfriend? 'Well our master is set to either completely destroy or severely devastate the world. We might get a kingdom of charred rock or wealth that would be near useless without a functioning economy. Might get immortality to enjoy thousands of years of burnt out villages, collapsed castles, and millions of trollocs as our only real company. And we're subject to immediate torture or murder if we displease our often unreasonable master and trial/execution if we're found out. Shit...SIGN ME UP!'

But its 'all taste' I guess. Yep, I can see how that's entirely realistic. Please...

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

But when you get disappointed, do realize it's not the authors fault.

This is one of the single dumbest thing I've read here or anywhere. Its not the artists fault that his work is shittier than my lowest expecations could have fathomed, its mine. Since obviously my expectations, which amounted to pretty much expecting the worst, weren't low enough. No it wasn't that Battlefield Earth was a terrible fucking movie, its my fault for not grasping just how bad it would be and adjusting my 'expectations' accordingly.

Do you realize that you haven't countered a single criticism of the work itself? Haven't tried to actually defend or promote it? Instead you've gone out of your way to attack the critic at every turn. That if we weren't satisfied with it, that must be our own failing because it couldn't possibly be the authors'. Honestly, I feel I've gotten that much dumber just reading your post.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

RJ is taking way to long to write a book, GRRM would never do that.

If you could point out that argument anywhere in this thread, other threads, or anywhere for that matter...cause I can't recall a single person ever making it.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

RJ draws the series out and made many more books than he originally planned

The 'original plan' means jack shit. If he has a story to tell that requires 12 books, than it requires 12 books. The criticism, from where I'm sitting, is that his story never required near that many and that he's dragging it out needlessly either because he's lost control of the story, is (was) milking the franchise, or both.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 9 2007, 09.35)

or beginning to criticise him. (also not fair)

Explain this to me. Why exactly isn't criticism fair?

As for the duration between novels, I don't see how that's all that relevant. Sure its a big deal for us fans who sit and wait on the installment, and if the last one was good, some unrealistic expectations may have been built up, but I'm not going to say 'I thought this book was so much better or worse' because of how 'little/long' I had to wait on it. Knife doesn't become a higher quality book all of a sudden because Jordan popped it out in 2 years instead of 5. Nor does Jordan get bonus points in a Martin comparison because the 3 books he wrote in 5 years moved the overall plot along about as much as the 1 book in 5 years that Martin gave us. Their prolificness is a completely seperate category from the quality of their work. And over time, when its all finished, the length between the novels becomes entirely irrelevant.

As for the book itself, just finished. It picked up substantially in the last 2-300 pages and actually became enjoyable. Props to RJ. Now if he could have spared me the first 500 pages, or condensed them to about 100, this could have been even better. But for some reason epic novelists feel the need to pump out 700-800 pages even when they don't have 500 pages of material to work with. At least the last third was good enough to overlook the numerous failings of Jordan already expanded upon above.

Isabel, I almost feel bad attacking your posts, so I'll keep it to a minimum. I really hope that you're a kid and that your youth and naivity is the cause of your poor non-arguments and absurd belief in RJ's 'realistic' portrayal of character interaction. And I hope you realize that growing out of it and recognizing the flaws doesn't mean you have to start hating the series. Hell, I loved and still love Rocky 4 and Red Dawn and it was only years later, upon rewatching, that I realized how terribly bad they were.

But as it stands now, you've not made a single comment that's really worth responding to. You're an apologist and I've seen variations (though usually better formed) of the same argument used to defend everything from the Star Wars prequels to the Matrix sequels (to a much lesser degree). They have a term for that. Fanboy (or girl). You blatantly refuse to acknowledge or recognize any criticism of your favorite work as even potentially valid. You do not properly respond to the criticism, you simply proclaim it untrue. You seem to cling to a poorly formed, very Os-ish relativist argument that there is no 'good or bad', just differences in opinion, which is patent bullshit. Whether you or I like/dislike something is largely subjective. Declaring a work 'good or bad' is an objective statement. As is 'Realistic or not'. They have nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with a direction or plot choice. Nothing to do with whether my expectations are too high or too low. Until you understand the difference, you may want to reconsider replying.

I will respond to one part specifically however.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 11 2007, 10.24)

Because people are not keeping Martin to the same standard.

Sure they are. Martin has suffered a substantial amount of criticism here and elsewhere for Feast. Even those who defend it usually recognize that it's not quite on par with his previous books. Its not quite as pronounced or widespread for several reasons. This is only one book. Jordan has been sliding badly for at least 3 books, probably more. (depending who you ask). Martin is by far a more talented and skilled writer, his characters more realistic and compelling, the dialogue stronger and wittier, and all of that makes an otherwise plodding storyline immensely more readable. Even when the plot drags, he's enjoyable. Jordan simply doesn't have that talent or skill.

But lets assume you're right and there is some hypocracy going on. So fucking what? Does protecting Martin make the criticism of Jordan any less valid? How? If I say that Baby Geniuses 2 (how on earth did that ever get a fucking sequel) is a cinematic masterpiece but Battlefield Earth sucks, does that make Battlefield Earth any better knowing that Baby Geniuses, in reality, also sucked? You seem to be coming in here with an inferiority complex due to the overall praise that Martin recieves and rabid scorn that Jordan tends to get. And with that chip on your shoulder, you feel this desperate need to defend him (poorly) at all costs. But you don't seem to realize that it doesn't matter how much praise Martin gets because its entirely irrelevant as to whether the criticism of Jordan is accurate or not.

QUOTE (Probably @ Jan 11 2007, 19.15)

I don't understand why you felt the need to attack her preferences like that. If she likes WoT, then let her be--I think many people here did at one point read Wheel of Time, too, and it was time (and better books) that lifted them up from the poor-quality-pit.

QUOTE (Gerold Hightower @ Jan 11 2007, 19.37)

Nobody attacked her preferences. But she seems to think that her stating "But I like it" invalidates other people's criticism of Jordan's books. It doesn't. It isn't even a statement about the books to begin with. It's a statement about herself.

To save me the time and effort I'll use Geralds reply. If she had simply said she liked it, I'd have left it alone. Everyone has their preferences. But she insisted that it was good, realistic, and the criticism unfair. These are all objective (aka, non-preference related, or subjective) statements that were unsupported by anything but her own assertions. She didn't actually make any arguments or defend any criticisms about the work itself.

If that's all there was, I'd have been nicer with my response. The part that got me riled up was her insistance on blaming other people for their dislike of the latter part of the series. And her refusal to accept the possibility that that 'dislike' might stem more from the poor quality of the work rather than our own personal preferences. Especially after myself and several others went out of our way to give proper criticism and legitimate reasons for disliking it and believing the quality to be lacking. Her 'Well that's just opinion, not fact' (and nothing else) response just didn't cut it.

QUOTE (Take on Me @ Jan 11 2007, 19.42)

I would like to read this book, but is it worth the pain of "Crossroad of Twilight"? I've tried to read that book twice, but I've always quit. I swore to give it up for good after 300 pages in to it I couldn't tell you what was happening at all.

Not that I should be encouraging anyone else to suffer through this nonsense, but I can say without a doubt that reading Crossroads of Twilight is completely unnecessary to grasp just about everything that's going on in Knife. Read the first chapter for the each major storyline in Crossroads (Siege of Tar Valon, Camylon, Mat at the Circus, Perrin in the woods) and skip to knife. Every character, in every plotline is in the exact same place doing the exact same thing at the start of Knife with one exception (Egwene) that you'll figure out in the first few pages of her knife chapter. It really was the definition of an absolutely useless book.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 12 2007, 08:02)

I am also annoyed when people state as a fact that the last few books suck. Because they don't take into account that other people might like the books.

Ok. I'm going to go through this once more.

Personal like or dislike DOES NOT EQUAL 'good or bad'. 'Like' is a personal, subjective statement. 'Sucks or not sucks' is an objective statement about the quality of the work itself. They are not the same thing. One does not equal the other. Everyone in the world could love the later WoT books and they could still suck on their own merits. At best, widespread personal preferences (aka, all those people who claim to genuinely like the latter books) could be one of many indicators of the actual quality of the work, but rarely a very reliable one. (largely because most people are stupid and have no taste. Especially when it comes to books. See the popularity of Eragon and Dan Brown for proof). And just to make sure I am being as clear as possible, you don't have to take into account that other people like the books to make a statement about their quality (whether they sucked or not). Their opinions are barely relevant and simply not necessary to make an objective statement of quality.

Rocky 4 'in fact' sucks, myself and many people I know love it. Does that change the fact that it sucks? The same thing applies to Red Dawn, does our love for that film make it suck any less? It's still a terrible film. Why do you think 'whether other people like it' in any changes whether the work is good or not? Whether you like or dislike something does not change its inherent, objective quality.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 12 2007, 08:02)

I also know other adults who think the characters are realistic. I know not everyone thinks that. And I do realize the characters are not representing all the females for example.
But I just find it really annoying that people claim it as a fact that the characters are unrealistic. That really pisses me off. As long as there are still people who think they could act the same as the characters, than apparantly the characters can be realistic..

Here's an idea. On this point and on the 'The last few books didn't suck point', tell me why its realistic. Tell me why they didn't suck. If it helps, refer back to my post that expanded on the lack of realism and respond to those points explaining why that's not the case. Make an argument. 'Some people don't think they didn't suck/was realistic' is not an argument. That tells me absolutely nothing. Some people also think Shapeshifting alien lizards are running Congress, doesn't mean they are.

QUOTE (Isabel @ Jan 12 2007, 2.55)

Look if you give me an example with quotes from the books, i can try to explain what i find realistic.

Why would I need to give quotes? I already gave about 5-6 different things that appear repeatedly throughout the books. An actual quote is completely unnecessary unless you're denying that they occur at all in the novels? I'll briefly restate them.

1. Spanking to ensure obedience. (across every culture, amongst nearly every group of females in the book)

2. Braid tugging/sniffing/skirt smoothing as a sign of irritation or disapproval for just about every female character in the book, once more across countries, oceans, cultures, etc.

3. Battles: Realism sacrificed for drama. AKA, we're forced to accept that nearly every commander, at one time or another, is an absolute, incompetent fool just to get the big, dramatic payoff/surprise from the conflict. Dumai's Well the obvious example. Instead of out scouts, skirmish parties, etc...these experienced warriors simply rushed in blindly with tens of thousands and got obliterated. RJ tried to explain this away during the prologue of the next book, realizing his mistake. The trolloc battle in Knife. Rand was there with at least a small army that apparently didn't post any watch, scouts, or outlying observers because everyone was completely surprised by a 100,000 man army that came out of nowhere. That they came from the Ways is irrelevant. There'd be more than enough warning, even with an incompetent army/commander (which Rand's not supposed to have) to notice that 100,000 beasts are assembling and marching towards them.

4. Heirarchy amongst women (once more, across nations and cultures) established by 'hard stares' and which ones bitch louder than the rest.

5. Convenient lapses in communication between main and minor characters that ensure major/minor plotlines never get resolved in a timely manner. This has been ongoing since the first book. Some of them are understandable, most aren't. And with the absurd excess of secrecy, it becomes little more than a 'plot stalling' advice. Because if the information actually reached a person with the knowledge, experience, and understanding to actually make use of it, too many plots would actually be resolved.

6. Childish, immature interactions between the sexes (and amongst them at times), even amongst those who's age and/or experiences should ensure a much higher level of maturity. Siuan's spankings, shoe-shining, cloths washing, childish banter and childish internal dialogues with the general. (aka, the 'I hate, hate, hate! that man, but can't stop thinking about him' bit. More appropriate for a 12 year old, not a century old, experienced and savvy former Amerlyn.) Every male character exclaiming at least once a chapter how they don't understand women and how Rand/Matt/Perrin or someone else does so much better. Matt's lengthy courtship of Tuon also falls into immaturity more often than not.

7. The redundant personalities amongst just about every female character in the series. Nearly all of them pushy, bitchy, bossy, and more often than not, stupid/oblivious and petty.

8. Rand's 3 sluts who are aren't the least bit jealous, are all best friends, and have no real problem with their 'Man' banging and impregnating the other two. This was in fact a copout by RJ. Much like his inability to kill off any character of importance, RJ set up a number of potential love interests, couldn't quite decide, so gave Rand all of them. And in a stroke of idiocy that defies logic and nearly everything we know about male/female interaction, they're all ok with it. This is also a continuation of RJ's 'barely pubescent boy's wet dream' theme in his story that includes alot of lesbianism, girl on girl spanking, giant bosoms every time you turn around, etc.

9. The most overused plot device in fantasy history, Ta'vern, ensuring that everything always works out for the heros and every thing they need to find to accomplish the task will be recieved in the nick of time. Also serves to destroy any and all tension or suspense.

10. A university for discoveries set up at most a few years back that has already developed a working steam engine, a steam engine truck that's already traveled the continent, new sewage system for a major city, riverboat style paddleboats, gliders, semi-advanced telescopes, etc. In the real world, many of these developments, from their earliest attempts, took decades to reach a quality, working model. Not enough time has passed in Randland for nearly anything with a practical application to be put to use yet.

There are many more, but I'll leave these to you for the moment.

QUOTE (Geddon @ Jan 12 2007, 10.26)

Ta'vern is the less famous plot device that ensures the heroes can find an ale house whenever they need one. Many epic fantasy heroes are Ta'vern.

Bah...typos.

That said, I truly wish fantasy authors would stop using apostrophes in any and all names. Its fucking annoying and they all do it. Its the standard fallback for nearly every fantasy author when they ask themselves 'How can I make this particular culture/people sound different? I know...apostrophes in every name!

But I guess it beats absolutely random, disconnected names with no linguistic similarity or purpose...like Galba'fucking'tronix.

QUOTE (Tears of Lys @ Mar 19 2007, 20.27)

I think Jordan's got a great imagination and a very interesting story to tell in this series, but I see two big problems with it: One, he's badly in need of a good editor.

So in short, I would give him an A for plotline, but a C for execution.

File most of the women under redundant. All of the nobles under irrelevant. All of the interesting characters under (near) permanently absent. Most of the expositions and travelogue's under needless. Relevant action under scarce. Pace under 'plodding' by a retarded, cripple snail's standard. Deus Ex's under prevelant. Overused plot devices (Ta'avern and others) under abused writer's crutch. The villains under neutered. Suspense under nonexistant.

Do all of this and you MAY have adequately prepared yourself for the rest of the series. But not even the most dismal of expectations can possibly prepare even an ardent Goodkind lover for the horror that is Crossroads of Twilight. If you choose to read this volume, stay away from any prescription medications, sharp objects, firearms, ropes, high ledges, open windows, sad music, tear-jerking films, or anything else the slightest bit depressing or you may be compelled to end it all.

QUOTE (thebadlady @ Mar 20 2007, 07.35)

Sword of the Morning (who is not SwordoftheMorning, our LoveMachine) gets a royalty check every time he defends Robert Jordan. You can ignore him like any other ballot stuffer.

I'm really starting to believe this now. Does this guy sit naked in a dark corner of his basement with a container of KY and a ballgag, drooling himself silly as he eagerly awaits the next WoT thread? Honestly, you don't even get this level of fanboyism at WoTmania (or the other sites). Just disturbing.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Apr 6 2007, 02.23)

In I think the 3rd book, one of the Forsaken makes the comment about how during the War, they took sword fighting and learned how to kill with it again. The current Blademaster training, which is the style of fighting described there, is a direct descendant of those old traditions.

Right. So how does this excuse 'Shaved baby tiger doing a handstand' countered by 'Malaria stricken tarantula gobbling down gummy bears' being the extent of the description for what is supposed to be a fairly significant fight scene? It made me want to counter with 'Irate, once loyal reader starting a bonfire'. Its silly. Its lazy. It saps all tension from the scene. Can't even really be called action. All around, quite pathetic. And no amount of 'justification' will change that. Can you honestly tell me...if this was a new author, someone you've never heard of before, had no vested interest in...that your first reaction wouldn't be "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Is Jordan really that bad?

Martin, Jordan...neither one owe us shit. Not sure where you're getting that. But nor do we owe them a damned thing either. None of which changes the fact that Feast was a subpar book when compared to the other three and took an inordinately long time to get done. Both legitimate issues for complaint.

Jordan on the other hand has completely lost control of his story, grinding it to a snails pace and filling the pages with redundant females, indecipherable in names and characteristics. Plot points laid down in book 2 still manage to dangle and the rare moments of resolution usually have an uninspired, 'going through the motions' type of feel to them. He's neutered his villains, butchered his heroes, sapped any and all tension from any situation because you know the 'Fellowship' will always, improbably come out unscathed. Lets face it, the book hasn't had a memorable moment since 6 and that was a bloated mammoth itself. RJ knows how to fill pages. He just doesn't know how to place anything interesting or relevant on them.

Yes, he does suck. No, he's not worth reading. No, there really is no hope of recovery. The guy is George Lucas...whatever he did once have, he lost a LONG, LONG time ago.

If Jordan had to rush KoD, its largely because he spent the 5 books before that just dicking around. After 20,000 pages or so...readers expect some resolution. We're just soooo damned unreasonable like that. It came off as checklist driven, 'going through the motions' piece of workmanship not because readers were impatient, but because Jordan is a shit author who completely lost control of the story. And he simply wasn't capable of getting it back on track in any sort of inspired (or anything remotely approaching that) way.

I thought Winter's Heart was kind of pointless myself. There was no logic or reasoning behind the cleansing. Or if there was (fan-speculation had some reasonable explanations), there was no buildup or support in the wasted several hundred pages before it. Simply Rand wandering around to new spots on the map for a bit. (like magic free city that oddly enough did not get a single mention in the preceeding 9 books...you figure something like that...and the ability to do that would be significant) Than he showed up, channeled a bit, Taint cleansed. Showing some of the actual investigation into how to do it would have been helpful. (and made the previous pages worthwhile) Instead we get a climax with no buildup.

Jordan blows it once again.

QUOTE (Lany Cassandra @ Aug 21 2007, 01.06)

the biggest downside is Jordan really cannot write women well. I find myself filling in "other" character traits for them, kind of doing little rewrites in my head. It makes them a lot less annoying and a bit more realistic.

He's even admitted that he doesn't write women well. Which makes his decision to have 95% of the characters in the books women all the more baffling. He makes up for it by giving these hundreds of female characters a single personality though. So all works out I guess.

Robert Jordan has passed away

In the same vein as KAH, without WoT I don't find this series or the board. Could have been years later or not at all. It was recommendations/comments on WoT boards that led me to ASoIaF. I actually didn't know much about the disease beyond that he had it and that it was dangerous. But as others have said, he always sounded optimistic and this definitely comes as a shock. Will be missed. Despite my many rants against the series, he remains one of the most important figures in the resurgence of the genre. Condolences to his family and RIP.