QUOTE (John Quincy Adams @ Jan 17 2009, 09.47)

I agree that it was underwhelming, but I don't think that's terribly odd; the truth is, once RDM decided that the final Cylon wouldn't be Roslin or Adama, anybody would have been anticlimactic. I'm just glad they got that revelation out of the way and can deal with Adama killing Zarek or something.

I'm more or less commenting in comparison to the rest of the episode. This was an excellent episode with its share of surprises, some of them HOLY FUCKING SHIT surprises. It was well put together, very tense, and worked just about every way it should've worked. I just found it ironic that the 'Great revelation' that they'd been hyping up for more than a season now...happened to be the least interesting part of it. After that great of an episode, it really felt like an unnecessary afterthought. I just found myself not really giving a shit who they labeled as the last Cylon, the rest was much more potent.

QUOTE (Swordfish @ Jan 17 2009, 16.30)

RE: Kara.

Obviously there is some resurrection hub like dealy on earth, since we know that the 5 were nuked there, and yet are still around, presumably in new bodies.

So...... Since her viper crashed there..... possibly it's still functioning.

Not to fall back into old habits, but you're trying to import conventional cause and effect logic into the BSG universe. Very often it doesn't apply.

QUOTE (TrackerNeil @ Jan 25 2009, 00.57)

Well, that's one way to view it. Another is that the rebel Cylons are a remora merely looking for any shark that'll take 'em, and that any technology they give to the humans will be riddled with traps and tricks and viruses. The Cylons have quite a history with this kind of thing, as you may recall. They also have a history of genocide and tyranny, which makes them doubly untrustworthy.

Also, the rebels demand citizenship and the protection of the human government, but are they ready to submit to the authority of that government? Really ready? Or do they want /Galactica/'s protection only on their terms? Seems to me that if the Sagittarons had some piece of wonder tech they'd be required to share it. If they're given citizenship, will the rebels open up their databases for inspection and sharing? Doubt it. No deal.

You have the very real threats mentioned here, you have the rather excessive demands, plus the fact that humans have survived thus far without triple jump tech, which while it'd be nice to have, it isn't an absolute matter of life and death. There are more than enough reasons to resist this cylon tech that have nothing to do with blind hate and bigotry. The survivors of the human race have every reason to be suspicious and resistant. And they don't have much of a reason to simply take Adama's word for it that these Cylons can be trusted. They haven't had all the dealings with them that he has. Nor has he been much more than a jackass whenever he's talked directly to the rest of the fleet (winning press conferences), what they know of him personally is only through glances and glimpses plus rumor. And no doubt alot of that is gonna be bad.

I know I've said before that humanity facing extinction would eagerly rally around a dictatorial strongman, but all those strongmen throughout history have done their share to cultivate their own cult of personality. Adama has not done this. He doesn't give a shit about his own PR and that sort of short-sightedness is costing him.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Jan 28 2009, 18.29)

And yet, you find the energy to not only watch it every week, but spend extensive time breaking down every episode in the seeming effort to drag down the enjoyment of everyone else.

That makes even less sense than the plot patches the writers are using.

Wow, this shit really keeps coming back around. I guess us nitpicky haterz should just pack our bags and leave these threads to those who have only (mostly) positive things to say about it. By all means we shouldn't let legitimate criticism get in the way of the happy circle jerk. Wouldn't want to drag down anyone's enjoyment. Cause god knows someone else saying negative things has a real impact on a person's viewing experience....

QUOTE (Jaxom 1974 @ Jan 28 2009, 20.10)

Not go around at this again with you, EHK, but is there anything discussed on these forums (with reagrd to television) that you actually like enough to praise rather than work over? Something that you watch each week and at the end of the episode you want to talk about in a positive light?

You or any of the other "nitpickers"...

Sure, back when Rome, The Wire, or Deadwood was on. Or Dexter or Weeds for that matter. Hell, I even liked the first couple of episodes of BSG this season. I had no problem with the way they did away with Tyrol's kid and found it to an acceptable retcon. Nor am I particularly concerned with the inconsistent treatment of Cylon superpowers. I've learned not to expect much consistency from the writers and I'm willing to overlook the minor shit. I simply object to the idea that there's something wrong with people coming into the thread with legitimate criticism (and they were legitimate points of critique, even if they were ones I was willing to overlook) and that we should all go elsewhere. I get that shit here, the Heroes thread, IMDB boards, and its quite frankly annoying.

Even if all the poster has is criticism, who gives a shit? They watch it for their reasons and others do it for their own. Than we all come here to share our views on it. The notion that sharing mostly negative views drags down someone elses enjoyment strikes me as utter bullshit. The episode doesn't become any better or worse on its own merits simply because someone gets nitpicky with it.

Also Wouter's criticisms strike me as quite valid. The Cylon Civil war was incredibly underdeveloped and should have received a heavier focus. Nor do I think the writers have a firm grasp on just what they want the Cylons to be. Those are also what I'd consider to be major issues as well.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Jan 28 2009, 21.32)

If I hated everything about a show for several straight years, I wouldn't watch it. I certainly wouldn't spend hours breaking it down.

Again, everyone has their reasons. I hear there are even some dumbass schmucks who read Crossroads of Twilight. Some people persist in behaviors that approach outright masochism. Who knows why anyone does it. But they do. I often do. And our reasons for watching or reading probably aren't any better or worse than yours.

QUOTE (The Kreb @ Jan 28 2009, 21.19)

I have one question: Do cylon's age? How long has Adama known Tigh? Has he been old man Tigh for like, ever?

The other Cylons we're pretty sure no. Different rules apply for the final 5, so they do age.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 28 2009, 21.48)

And at some point it crosses into nitpicking.

Like someone said earlier, some of you people could suck the fun of a blowjob.

That comment I had no problem with as it applied to the current discussion. (and actually kind of agreed with) It was the 'if you hate the show, gtfo and stop ruining for us!' bs that I objected to. We have as much right to be here as any other poster. Our chronic negativity being neither unwarranted nor unjustified.

QUOTE (alguien @ Jan 28 2009, 22.38)

And a good day to you, sir.

heh, don't feel bad, I read it too.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 29 2009, 00.03)

What plotholes? and Yes, often it is. Except you mean "Perfection" instead of "Excellence".

Hell, I'm not even looking for excellence, just quality. And for long stretches of BSG's run it often didn't even have that. At least not when it comes to proper foundation, convincing plotting, and internal consistency. Its always been respectable in terms of acting and writing, with a few misses here and there. Production values and effects have been mostly good. But it has a habit of outright eviscerating characters. (not on Heroes levels, but Helo anyone?) Of exploring supposed moral dilemmas that just aren't supported by the context. Of reverting to the 'god did it' writing crutch to either resolve drama or drive it. Of inconsistency in their treatment of characters. Of pulling shit out of their asses that either have no or very little prior support because they don't have a plan anymore than the Cylons did. Of logical gaffs large and small that occasionally strain the suspension of disbelief.

It is not demanding perfection to clean these things up. Hell, its not even demanding excellence. It does seem that alot of people like to grade sci-fi/fantasy TV fare on a curve and I have no idea why. HBO and Showtime seriels usually don't have these problems or at least not as often. What's the big deal with demanding serial drama that's consistent and makes sense?

I was entertained. Impressive use of their expanded cast, which has always been one of the most unique aspects of the show and a main strength. I mean how many name characters with the (very) occasional line, the semblance of a personality, and occasionally even a bit of development do they have? I can't recall any other show ever doing this. These would be nameless, faceless, replaceable extras in another show. Red shirts in Star Trek. And all of them seem quite capable of stepping into a larger role when necessary, as many of them have. That's a wealth of competent talent there and perhaps the most impressive part of the show is, even during its bad stretches, they manage to make intelligent use of them.

I really didn't have any complaints beyond sending only 2 guards to escort the deposed leader of the fleet. Even with all the chaos ongoing, figure that might be a bigger priority. Great episode. Back up to 2nd season heights. Not sure how its going to turn out, but I'd be curious to see a Gaeta led fleet for a while. Always struck me as a smart, thoughtful, competent character...though perhaps not capable of handling the power he just assumed.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Jan 31 2009, 17.02)

Except Adama is right in that jump distance is a matter of fleet safety, and therefore a military matter, not a civilian one.

Yet they were all content to let the civilian authorities decide it (back when they thought they could persuade them) and when they chose the wrong way Adama took his ball and went home. Yeah it is a matter of fleet safety. So what? The act of installing these things has the potential of being 10 times more dangerous than not installing them. Can you blame any of the colonials for not trusting the cylons as far as they can throw them? Hell, even the people with the most dealings with these 'renegades' should be actively suspicious. We already know that Cylon technology is fully capable of infecting and controlling colonial systems, everyone and their dog should be wondering what kind of backdoor those toasters are gonna install.

Better jump technology is important, but not at the level of absolute necessity that its worth shoving it down the civilian fleet's throat and risking turmoil. Or if it is, there are less belligerent ways to approach it. Adama going the civilian route, getting an answer he doesn't like, than saying 'fuck it, its military' is quite simply an abuse of power and blatant disregard for civilian authority, something he's shown many, many times.

QUOTE (Guy Kilmore @ Feb 3 2009, 10.10)

In regards to the legality or the rationale of the mutiny, in my mind it has very little to do with allying with the Cylons. Hummanity has broken. The people are hurt and angry, they feel betrayed because hope has been killed. I would almost say that there is mass "depression" going on. This isn't about Adama's rough treatment of civilian authority, but about the rage of not finding the home they hoped for. This is about a loss of purpose and self. The beliefs that alot of the populace held is ripped away, any sense of order and identity is gone. This is about lashing out from pain. It is what drives the mutineers, it is what drove Starbuck. The actions or inactions of Adama, Rosyln, Zarek, Gaeta et al. are merely symptons of this phenonenom (sp?). It didn't matter what any of them did, something like this was going to happen.

That is a cause, but not the trigger. Nor was it a cause that necessarily had to have this effect. Defeat and disappointment on this scale can have adverse effects (NAZI's, Bolsheviks), but it is not a guarantee of them. Pushing an alliance that presented a legitimate threat to the survival of humanity over the objections of much of the fleet without an ounce of diplomacy on the matter and against the wishes of the legitimate civilian government caused this. The disappointment of the long held dream of earth merely laid the foundation for an such an excessive reaction to power abuse, but without the power abuse, this does not happen.

QUOTE (Crow's Eye @ Feb 3 2009, 12.05)

Right. It's all consistent and within the bounds of the characters, and I don't have any continuity problems in how they've acted and reacted. But just because these characters "could" act in this way doesn't mean that they absolutely had to. The writers had many opportunities to characterize the revolutionaries as "righteous" in their cause, but instead chose to send them down a dark path. Which is fine with me - it was a great episode - i just thought they lost an opportunity to blur the lines between "good" and "bad" to a greater extent.

Honestly I think they're blurred well enough. Adama's disinterested dismissal of the civilian government, his enforcing of his will despite their protests, Roslin's abandonment of her duties, its impossible not to point a finger at them for allowing this to happen. Further, Starbuck isn't rape happy, but she is kill happy of defenseless prisoners. Gaeta believes he's doing the right thing and is clearly disturbed by the bloodshed. He's a sympathetic enough character in this mess. Many side characters who we've come to know and even like have joined him in this. There is enough sympathy and condemnation to go around for both sides. The presentation of this coup works as both realistic given the context and reasonably ambiguous for either side. Hell, these several pages of discussion (when was the last time a single episode spawned this much debate?) should be evidence enough that the show left enough room to reasonably pick sides. The lines are blurred enough.

QUOTE (Guy Kilmore @ Feb 3 2009, 12.29)

The only reason I bring this up is because it looks like Adama's resistance to Zarek being president is being presented as irrational or as "poor decision-making/leadership" and some of the arguements being presented. Where I can see some rational reasons as to Adama's resistance.

I don't think its being presented as bad decision-making, but an example (one of many) where Adama clearly flouted and disregarded the law. The military running roughshod over the civilian to get the leader he likes. He almost always has good intentions with these things, but it makes it hard for him to cry foul when others disregard oaths and law to remove him. Which is what people were pointing out. The hypocrisy.

QUOTE (Wouter @ Feb 3 2009, 14.55)

I agree, I had the same feeling especially when they murdered Laird. The way this scene was scripted and played, it was definitely meant to evoke sympathy for Adama's side and paint the rebels in a very negative light (allthough they wavered a bit with Gaeta, who was at least seen trying to not have Laird killed, though he didn't condemn the murder clearly enough).

I don't really know if evoking sympathy was the purpose, or at least not the primary purpose. I think it was as straight forward as Zarek suggested. Showing up front to Gaeta (and us, if we still needed confirmation) that this was not going to be a bloodless revolution. That innocents would die. And to test whether the new leadership had the stomach for it.

For this storyline to work, the episode almost had to happen this way. (or some variation of it) A coup without bloodshed would have been redundant and boring at this point. Revolutionaries without some questionable or unsavory motives would be unrealistic. I think they did a good job of presenting it all in a believable fashion that's reasonably in character with most of the players.

And if the next episode has Roslin attacking with Cylons from the Cylon baseship, she's essentially destroyed any legitimacy she may have had. If they do go that route, I hope that's acknowledged.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 3 2009, 14.26)

Huh? Tigh and Tory are both perfectly consistent. As are most/all of the Cylons.

And I wouldn't trust actors on knowing wtf is going on in the bigger picture.

Wouter's main point still stands and is pretty indisputable, neither the writer's nor the producers knew what the bigger picture was either. And they sure as fuck didn't communicate even their vague notions to the actors either. They are making much of this up as they go, have been since the earliest season, and retconning as they see fit to shove their new ideas into the context they created. Sometimes it fits, sometimes its incredibly clumsy. Either way, the whole product would've been much better if they had an actual plan. But it seems pretty clear that they've got one from here on out, so lets see how it plays.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 3 2009, 14.41)

It's been plotted out the way most shows are. Vague ideas that are filled in later.

Most shows aren't serials. And just about every major serial not on HBO and Showtime have suffered from this lack of clear direction, planning, and foundation. I think its time for 'most shows' of this kind to take a different path.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 3 2009, 18.26)

It may be just as simple as this. The cycle will repeat itself forever until the Humans learn to do the one thing they couldn't do on the Colonies, nor could they do it on Kobol - actually consider the Cylons "people". Just as every Human is not guilty of every crime committed by every other Human, collective guilt cannot be assigned to the Cylons either. They have the rights of person (including the right to not be beaten or raped as captives)

Yes collective guilt can be assigned to Cylons. At least every one of them who knew they were a Cylon. With few exceptions, they behave collectively. Outside of those who have been 'corrupted' by the outside, the individual numbers all act in lockstep with one another. Boomer actually voting against the rest of the rest of the 6's was viewed with astonishment. They implied pretty heavily (and I think outright said) that such a thing had never happened. All of the model numbers (final 5 excepted) were aware of the impending genocide. There is no evidence of any dissent leading up to the slaughter. Presumably each model number had a hand in carrying it out.

Quite simply every Cylon that knew they were a cylon is complicit in genocide. They are all guilty. They are not people, they are butchers. None of them deserve to be treated any differently. It is impossible for them to atone for that crime. Any amount of human hatred of them is 110% justified. Any atrocity that humanity may deliver unto them is completely deserved. There is no reason why they shouldn't be wiped out completely short of an inability to do so. (which of course is the situation the remnants of humanity find themselves in) They have no rights and should have no rights. They should die.

QUOTE (Sebastian @ Feb 4 2009, 06.36)

But I agree, the show has been trying to portray the Cylons in a more sympathetic light while all the time evading the question of their culpability in the genocide. Actually, even the reasons for the genocide were never explained in a non-cryptic way. The writers sometimes seem to pretend it didn't happen, with some characters blaming the Cylons only for New Caprica and not for the mass murder of billions of people.

This is a recurring problem with alot of the moral ambiguity the show sometimes tries to create. Everytime the remnants humanity do something inhumane to cylons the implicit (and sometimes explicitly stated) question is thrown out there, "Are we really any better than they are?" Well, have you essentially extincted a species without provocation? No? Well, torture away. You are better. You have the moral high ground in everything you do even if it amounts to genocide, cause even that amounts to self-defense at this point.

There are only two reasons not to inflict the most horrific atrocities on the Cylons. One is necessity. They (arguably) presently need the rebel cylons because they're useful to man's survival. And two, excess brutality for the sake of brutality, without any other purpose amounts to barbarism and those impulses should not be condoned or encouraged. Not that Cylons don't deserve these things, but it reflects poorly upon us and we should be above it.

And the WW2 analogies don't really work. Nor do any other past instances of human atrocity because of what I pointed out in the first post. Humans do not behave collectively in the same fashion and to the same extent that Cylons do. Even in the heart of NAZI Germany there are innocents. It is impossible to declare full collective guilt for every member of that country. It is very easy to do so for every cylon who knew what they were.

QUOTE (Myrddin @ Feb 4 2009, 10.46)

One thing that I've always wondered: doesn't a situation like the fleet's in usually warrent martial law? Everything about the new civilization post-attack on the colonies just screams a need for a dictator-like leadership (speaking historically, not from any desire to see the rise of any dictatorship)?

I've said many times that I think it does. Extreme times open people up to extreme solutions, including dictatorial, cult of personality leadership. But Adama has done nothing to cultivate that following and given his disregard for civilian interests, government, and media plus the ultimate failure of his 'master plan', its quite easy to see how they would turn on him. Adama does not care about his own PR and his major objective has failed, thus they do not rally around him anymore. Quite the opposite.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 4 2009, 16.33)

But what you 'pointed out' was more an argument, and in my opinion an unconvincing one.

I think you grossly exaggerate the extent to which we can be certain (and the Colonials especially can be certain) that the Cylons behave in a collective fashion. The primary mechanism by which they seem to gain shared experiences is (was) tied to the Resurrection process. That has been destroyed and from that point forward, as far as we know, all shared consciousness among the models ceased. And even before, it was limited to the models. The 3's have no guilt whatsoever for what the 6's did except for the extent to which they cooperated with it. And even then, not all 3's are the same.

But from the moment the Resurrection Hub was destroyed (an act of Rebellion even stronger than Gaeta's, btw), each individual from the 'standard seven' became wholly and irrevocably a unique being - each with its own ongoing perspective shared by no other.

The Resurrection Hub was destroyed well after the genocide. Even if some have 'seen the light' since than (even though we still can't find a single cylon whose expressed a significant measure of guilt and sorry on the whole mass murder thing.), its too little, too late. I'm sure that even Eichmann could potentially reform, turn over a new leaf, and be deeply sorry for the atrocities he was responsible for...but you still execute the fucker regardless. Crimes this big have no expiration date no matter the 'personal growth' of the culprits. And I still haven't seen any individualism within the model numbers outside of those who have had large exposure to humanity. Even the limited individualism we have seen only resulted in one out of the many 'human tainted' cylons voting against her model number. A 100% voting record is a pretty good sign of collective behavior...or a 3rd world dictatorship.

We can reasonably assume that all Cylons (those who knew what they were) knew of the impending genocide. We have no evidence that any of them disagreed with the decision, let alone actively worked against it. We have no evidence of any cylon dissent whatsoever til long after the fact when Boomer was introduced into their midst. I think its safe to say that they're all (those who knew what they were) culpable. What is there really to cast doubt on this?

QUOTE (Ran @ Feb 4 2009, 18.41)

I think there's something to Bronn's argument regarding the Cylons here. They were a vast collective that went in relatively unthinking lockstep, because there weren't really more than eight "individual" personalities. This has slowly changed at first, but now it's changed much more rapidly with the destruction of the resurrection hub. With no means of reinforcing the shared nature of experience, they will individualize quite a lot more quickly.

But that's now. 'Then' already happened, 'then' was a genocide of an entire species, their personal growth since is nice but irrelevant. They could spend a thousand lifetimes healing the sick and caring for the meek and it wouldn't matter. All of them are guilty. None of them have paid for those crimes. They all still deserve death.

QUOTE (Ran @ Feb 4 2009, 18.41)

And if Eichmann did all that, /and/ was key to the survival of all humanity against an outside force... ?

Like I said earlier, absolute necessity preempts justice. Got to be practical and all.

QUOTE (davos @ Feb 4 2009, 22.25)

For the cycle to stop though, for this to not occur again several millenia down the line, is for each side to stop being driven by those feelings and reach out. they need to understand eachother elsewise they will keep swapping sides, victim and butcher, butcher and victim.

Nonsense. The actions of today do not guarantee repeats thousands of years from now. I don't care what RDM and the show creators have to say about it, its silly. The decision to slaughter a species was made independent of any 'cycle'. Even if they knew of such cycle and claimed that as their justification it'd still be bullshit. You cannot base such a monumental and horrific decision on some thousand years old prophecy and if you do, it does not remove a shred of your culpability.

QUOTE (davos @ Feb 4 2009, 22.25)

You may not agree with this. It seems, though to be where the show is headed. I personally tend to agree with it though. While we've never seen anything taken close to the extremes presented in the series we do have situations where long standing conflicts are keep alive by continuing hatred, fear and anger and the only way out is for at least one side to have the balls to get past their very reasonable feelings to reach out to the other.

Which is another example of the show's attempted relevance that doesn't really fit the context it created. Despite the speculation of continued arming of the colonial fleet and inquiries into the current status of Cylons, there was no 'cycle' of violence within this current human/cylon epoch. There was a war, a 40 year peace, than a genocide. There was no real provocation. Perhaps the Cylons had right to fear the colonials, perhaps they had the right to feel threatened by some of their actions, but none of that remotely calls for, excuses, or justifies the actions taken. How the hell can you ask a species of 50,000 people scrambling for survival that was 50 BILLION to be the bigger man and reach out? The only reason to reach out, the only reason to cooperate is and should be necessity. Otherwise the Cylons deserve extinction.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 4 2009, 22.12)

And even this is suspect. We know that the 6's, 2's, 5's and 8's were heavily involved in the occupation of Caprica. 1's and 4's were seen occasionally, but not seemingly in command-related roles. 3's were kind of a wild card. I am not completely convinced that there was a unanimous civilization-wide fervor for it. I think that were he inclined to do so, RDM could credibly assert otherwise for two or three of those models.

Wake me when he does. At the moment we've seen absolutely no evidence that there was any dissent whatsoever on the initial decision and significant evidence that could lead to the reasonable inference of widespread, even unanimous support.

Honestly, the writer's seem intent on ignoring that little 'episode' entirely. The butchering of humanity doesn't sit well with their pretensions towards moral ambiguity and real world relevance. The actual context overwhelms the themes they're trying to explore. So they disregard it, especially in Cylon to Cylon discussion where they talk about never being forgiven for New Caprica....New Caprica? Really? A bit of oppression, internment, torture, and a few executions? That's the unforgivable crime? Not slaughtering 50 billion people?

The Cylons seem neither repentant nor really even ready to acknowledge their role in that matter. Which would be fine, but I don't know if the writers are intentionally trying to portray them as the self-delusional butchers that they really are, or if they mean their reactions to their crimes to be taken as reasonable and thoughtful. Or their (mostly negative) observations of humanity to be true and insightful rather than blatant hypocrisy of the highest order.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 5 2009, 02.25)

Nor have we seen any human repentance for the original discrimination and abuse that lead to the Cylon rebellion forty years prior. The only word of the abuse WE get is when the news scrolls across the screen early in the series. But the Centurions seem to remember. And we still don't REALLY know what they are - we know they aren't total automatons.

Was there any concept of the Cylons being sentient before they rebelled? I can't recall if that was ever explored in the mini-series. If not, what can you really blame humanity for? Do people actually give two thoughts to the emotional well-being of their microwaves and refrigerators? Do they ask if their television wants to continue being a television? These were tools. What was the timing between their exercising of free thought, humanity's awareness of this, and their rebellion? Do we know these things?

Further, even if they knew Cylons were self aware and still kept them as indentured servants, that was 40 years before. Most people old enough to have had an active part in that oppression were long dead. What does anyone younger than Saul Tigh have to atone for?