QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 5 2009, 15.08)

I'm posting Adama's Speech again in case you guys missed it:

Whatever the Cylons are, the Colonials MADE THEM. They our their children and if their nutjobs, it's because the Colonials helped make them so.

The Cylons aren't some random alien species, they are the Colonials own dirty past come back to bite them in the ass.

Yes, and that speech is vague and answers none of the questions I've been asking. Did the Cylons become self-aware and say 'Well, we don't want to be your slaves anymore' and get shot down? Or was there self-awareness, a bit of secret planning, than revolt? That speech says nothing useful. Cylons have demonstrated an ability to expand their own programming. They created their own, smarter skinjobs. Baseships. Resurrection hubs. etc. If they became monsters and nutjobs, its entirely likely that they themselves charted that direction.

If the point of this is to deflect responsibility for their own actions, than fair enough. We created them, any actions they took since then are our fault. At that point however they are also no longer sentient and can and should be treated with all the care and consideration laptop. If my laptop was trying to kill me, I wouldn't and shouldn't think twice about smashing it with a hammer. And there'd be no crime or injustice committed. If however they are sentient, do have free will, and are capable of making their own choices (which we know they are), than they are fully responsible for those choices and deserve punishment for them.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 5 2009, 15.25)

Then the Colonials deserved to get nuked.

And why use Laptop as an analogy? Because you want to think of them as nothing more then machines. (funny, considering the show we're talking about)

Their more like Children. Or hell, even pets.

If you adopt a puppy, and then beat it every day, are you surprised when it bites you?

I used the laptop analogy for the same reason I used the refrigerator, microwave, and television analogies up above; Because they were machines, not living things. Noone's gonna treat their pocket watch like they would a puppy. A person with all the empathy in the world isn't going to worry about the emotional well-being of their calculator. And I would be incredibly surprised if my table saw intentionally tried to cut my arm off even if I said and did mean things to it all day for years. They were not pets, they were machines. So the point at which they started becoming something more and when humanity became aware of this is incredibly relevant. Because there's no reason for humanity to treat them any differently until they realized their changed status.

Good enough episode for what it was, but outside of a few missing characters this whole sequence may as well have been an episode of TNG. Too neat and tidy. Too easy to retake the ship. Unlikely to be much focus on the consequences from here on out. Kind of disappointing. I'm sure they have other story elements to get two, but I for one would've been curious to see a Gaeta and Zarek run fleet. Hell, I don't care if it'd result in a dead Adama, Tigh, and a President in exile with the cylons...it'd show some real balls and a definite creative shift. And with only a few episodes to go, what do you got to lose? Adama is a great character and Olmos a great actor, but I could deal without them.

QUOTE (Ran @ Feb 7 2009, 19.18)

In what sense was she not a legitimate president? The fleet says she was, and I figure they're the ones who decide.

Legitimate only because the military wouldn't cooperate with anyone else. (or at least noone else not named Adama) Roslin lost the election she tried to rig, than when Baltar defected after New Caprica, the lawfully and legitimately elected Vice President (Zarek) tried to step into his proper role as President. The military pseudo-dictator would not accept democracy or rule of law. Adama threatened to ignore the civilian government entirely if Zarek was its leader. So Zarek seeing few other options appointed Roslin as his VP and than stepped down. She has been elected by noone. Chosen by noone but Admiral Adama, whom she gave the rank to and happens to be sleeping with. (not that she was at the time, but the potential existed for quite a while) Her Presidency is a de facto reality, but hardly legitimate. It neither represented the will of the people (or if it did, it has not been validated by any actual vote) nor the rule of law. Her appointment after New Caprica amounted to a soft coup.

Who knows, maybe they had good reasons for their illegitimate power grab. Like some other people on the show...

QUOTE (Ran @ Feb 7 2009, 02.09)

aegon6 claims she was never the legitimate president. Which I'm assuming you would disagree with, yes?

As to Zarek... Zarek never had good reasons. He had himself. Good reasons were kind of lost in the mix of selfish goals. So as far as that goes, I think Adama was right to very firmly point out that Zarek was not a tenable option as president. And Zarek accepted that and stepped into the role that was tenable, vice-president. His position as vice-president, one notes, depended on his using a legitimate process to get Roslin into the presidency.

As far as I recall, the fleet didn't have any particular unrest over it once it was done, no calls for a fresh election (which I'm pretty sure Roslin would have won, anyways), etc.

It's as legitimate as it gets, under the circumstances. If the fleet had issues with it, they would have dealt with it; they didn't. The attempt to do so by Gaeta and Zarek failed, because Zarek proved to be too morally bankrupt to handle it properly, and because they offered no real alternatives for the survival of the humans.

The move was only legitimized because Zarek, noting his options were limited, cooperated with the undemocratic soft coup and handed over power. If he decided to raise a fuss, he'd have been well within his rights. The Quorum and the fleet after the disastrous leadership of Baltar figured Democracy could take a back seat for a bit and shrugged it off. Either that or they weren't aware that Adama essentially pushed Zarek out of power in the first place. They're either a government or a gang. Hierarchy, legitimacy, democracy and rule of law either matters or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, than anything goes and to the stronger go the spoils. If that was legitimate, than so was the coup. But as you say, they didn't really have a significant alternative nor a real vision of what to do after the fact (so far as we know).

QUOTE (Guy Kilmore @ Feb 7 2009, 17.28)

I think that Roslin and Adama could have handled themselves better after the discovery of earth, but I do not think that this situation was avoidable, I think something like this was inevitable. The Colonials have lost everything that has made them who they are, such as:

The situation was bleak and certainly made it much easier for something like this to occur, but it was far from inevitable. These things need a spark and to have anything more focused than some fights or riots, you need careful planning. Any plan that didn't involve the takeover of Galactica was doomed to failure unless their goal is simply to cause havoc. (that you can do from the fleet) So the military who thoroughly loves Adama, whose fought with him through hopeless situations time and time again, they had to turn on him. The disappointment of earth was crucial, but that failure alone would not have spawned this. It took cozying up to the enemy that genocided the species and is ultimately responsible for their pathetic lives of the last 4 years, arrogantly disregarding the civilian leadership and the will of the people, and an abject failure of leadership.

This could have been ironed out. The cylon FTL bit could have been handled with softer gloves rather than the abrupt dismissal of the very valid concerns of the civilian fleet. A less patently offensive deal for the technology could have been attempted with the rebel cylons. And if all of this didn't work, Roslin could get on the fucking radio like she tried to a thousand times this episode yet completely ignored when she was abandoning her duties and made the case and tried to convince people. Even if all of those measures were exhausted, they could either give up on the measure or tell every ship that refuses that they'll be left behind.

This could have been avoided. This is ultimately the fault of Roslin and Adama's pathetic leadership.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 8 2009, 02.06)

Did you actually watch this episode?

The 'Civilian Leadership' had nothing to do with this revolt. They wanted no more part of Zarek than Adama or Roslin. It was a coup run by two men - one of whom genuinely believed he was doing the right thing and another who has no goal beyond personal power and aggrandizement.

Yes, there is concern in the fleet about the Cylon Alliance, but nobody is really offering an alternative. The rebel Cylons are sincere - the Resurrection Hub proved that. Adama has the good sense to recognize that the REAL danger to the fleet is a Cylon reconciliation. With supplies dwindling, the human fleet has virtually no chance of survival beyond a few years without their new allies. And yet you believe that Adama should defer to the fear mongering masses.

How did that work out on New Caprica? That was the last time Adama deferred to 'the will of the people' against his own vastly superior judgment. Getting them out of the mess they made by electing Gaius Baltar and settling on New Caprica cost them their single most valuable military asset.

Guy Kilmore essentially stated that something like this was inevitable after the disaster of earth. I was simply arguing that it was entirely avoidable if Adama and Roslin would have demonstrated an ounce of leadership when it was needed most.

The civilian leadership was not in favor of a coup, but they were most certainly against Adama's Cylon FTL plan. His abrupt dismissal of their concerns and veto of their ruling (even though he ceded that it was a civilian matter at first and sent it to them to gain legitimacy, only deciding to screw the whole civilian government thing when he didn't get his way) added to general unrest, resentment, and the legitimacy of the coup. And offering citizenship was tantamount to Israel granting citizenship to Adolf Hitler, not a chance. Adama and Roslin could have negotiated a lesser compromise that'd be more pleasing to the fleet, or at least convinced the Cylons to delay the request until the rest of the fleet grows more accepting and they actually earn some trust outside of the military, but again, failed leadership.

I'm not saying the FTL's and other aid weren't necessary, I am saying that Adama and Roslin went about it extremely poorly during a delicate, unstable time and all but brought this coup on themselves. They could have avoided this if they would have handled it better.

Further, the cylons launched a surprise attack after 40 years of peace and exterminated a species. They were set on betraying the deal with the Deanna awakening. (I think) These particular cylons are even worse from a 'trust' perspective since they're turncoats. The 8's are incredibly wishy-washy as we've already noted, the Leoben's and 6's are a message from god away from changing their mind. How can they be considered sincere in anything?

Also, given how bad the whole earth thing turned out, Baltar's main initiative as President was fine. A habitable planet all but undetectable to Cylons where the humanity could restart. Quite superior to Adama and Roslin's plan. One in the hand is better than 3 in the bush. (especially when the bush ones happened to represent an irradiated wasteland) Only a freak occurrence (admittedly brought on by Baltar's stupidity) and random chance fucked things up. But there was nothing wrong with Baltar's judgment in the matter.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 8 2009, 03.01)

Huh?!?!

His original plan was to send the matter to the Quorum and let them decide since they (Adama's and Roslin) were convinced at the time that they could get them (Quorum) to go along. Sure it was a matter of legitimacy and political cover for what he knew would be an unpopular policy, but by sending it to them for their approval he essentially acknowledged that it was a civilian matter. Only after they gave him the incorrect verdict did he put on his dictator hat and say 'Fuck you guys, its military'. He basically said 'Democracy is fine so long as it works the way I want it to work'.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 13 2009, 22.07)

It's John Hodgeman. He occasionally does stinks on the Daily Show.

Seriously though, while that had some good moments, that wasn't an episode, it was an hour long info-dump.

Agreed. Interesting stuff, but still an hour of complete exposition. Interesting Cain and Abel dynamic with Cavel and his deactivated brother. Still a bit fuzzy though. So the Cavels knew everything about the final 5 all along, and they reprogrammed all 5 plus all the other models as well to have no memory of this? Yeah, you look at it too closely it is like incompatible puzzle pieces being cut to fit and repainted a bit to make a different coherent picture, but it fits well enough that you're willing to ignore the frayed edges. Impressive bit of retconning. It is a house of cards and no it doesn't stand a closer examination, but what the hell, I'm past getting annoyed by such shit. I've given both this and Heroes a new line of credit so long as they remain coherent from here on out. They've managed to for the moment.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 14 2009, 03.30)

It actually fits really well with everything. I wouldn't call it a "House of Cards" at all.

The other Cylon models simply not being able to talk about the Final Five. It's something they don't do because Cavil has fucked with their brains. And remember right before the Civil War, what he says? "Perhaps the one who preogrammed us did not want us to know of the final five because it would be dangerous!" or something to that effect. And think back to Cavil making Ellen sleep with him to get Tigh out of prison. Or Cavil hanging out with Anders resistance cell.

It also does a perfect job of explaining what's different about the Final Five and why Tigh of all people could be a Cylon.

Hell, it even perfectly explains why the Resurrection Hub was so important.

You're missing the 800 pound gorilla in the room. 50 billion people, 12 planets, an insane number of possible careers and lifestyles...and 2 of the 5 JUST HAPPEN to get assigned to the same ship? (3 of 5 if you count Ellen) But that's nothing, not only do all 5 somehow survive the holocaust, but they all end up more or less in the same place. There's no way they're even gonna try to explain that cosmic coincidence and if they did, I wouldn't buy it for a second.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 14 2009, 13.07)

They already did.

Cavil did his best to maneuver them into place. He wanted them to enjoy the apocalypse.

Hell, Ellen WASN'T part of the Fleet, so he had her picked up and smuggled into it so she wouldn't miss out on the "fun". Tory could easily have had the same sort of thing happen.

The only questionable coincidence is Tigh and Tyrol on the same ship. And Tyrol was introduced later then Tigh, so maybe he pulled something off there? No clue.

And it may come down to the One True God pulling this shit off. It's talked to them all before after all.

Tirol and Tigh the only questionable coincidence? How about the Galactica being one of the only two colonial ships to survive the attack? They looked pretty damned close to blowing it to hell dozens of times in the series and mini-series. Are you telling me they weren't really trying to destroy Galactica? Just some plot to make them feel imperiled? Did he also maneuver Starbuck to go back to Caprica to meet Anders and pick him up? Did they manuever the Cylon occupation there not to kill one of the heads of the resistance? Looked to me like they were shooting to kill. If there was a hands off order for certain ships/people, you'd think that one of the domesticated Cylons (human allied) might have mentioned that. And if the Cavil's were the only ones in the know, how did he manage to stop the others from killing Galactica and the 5? Cavil would have to be the lovechild of Littlefinger and Varys with more than a touch of omnipotence to have 'maneuvered' this into place.

QUOTE (Wouter @ Feb 14 2009, 16.13)

His ship is falling apart; Chief implied it wasn't safe to jump anymore. They need the Cylon technology. From the leader of the fleet, who was willing to deal with the cylons anyway, I expect more than basing his actions purely on emotions.

At least he turned around at the end. If only he had given the anti-Cylon faction in the fleet the same time, they may have accepted the need, especially if their protector couldn't jump safely anymore.

Dude, the people had a revolt against him largely because of his insistence on dealing with the Cylons and implementing their technology. You don't think the nearly deposed lord soon after regaining control just might have a change of heart and appease the riled up peasantry by siding with them on the issue? And be agitated by the mere idea of doing the same shit that caused the mess in the first place? Yeah its not the only way he could have reacted, but its a perfectly reasonable one. Being completely averse to Cylon-anything in the ship. (chief and XO excepted) Nothing illogical with getting burned and shying away from flames from there on out.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 14 2009, 15.47)

Um, yeah. Callie kills her and gets charged with "discharging a firearm". They thought of her as a Cylon.

She thinks she's a person, finds out she's a robot and the ones she thought of as "her people" hate her for it. Pretty much all of them. Hell, they kill her in cold blood.

She doesn't WANT to be human anymore. Cavil has brought her around to his way of thinking. And it isn't really hard to see how.

Its not difficult to see how its possible, but it would have been nice to actually SEE some of it on screen. Instead she just pops up once second, votes against her model, and calls it a day. The whole civil war storyline was criminally underdeveloped. And Boomer had no arc or development at all during it even though her turn was pretty much a cornerstone of it. It was not handled well, neither was she, and they warranted MUCH more screen time.

QUOTE (davos @ Feb 14 2009, 07.05)

I maybe stepping on a minefield here but I think, that in light of the revelations from this episode, the issue of if the alliance with the rebel skinjobs is ligit or not bears reevaluation. In the past we were under the impression decision to stage a genocidal attack on the colonies was a decision made by the seven human model cylons as a group. Hence, even though some of them have since developed a great deal more individuality and have changed their attitudes towards humans that they all shared a large measure of the guilt for the attack and wholesale slaughter of billions upon billions of humans (I don't recall if they ever do give us an idea what the total population of the colonies was at the time of the cylon attack). Some argued that, while the alliance was a practicle necassity that the all the cylon skinjobs are deserving of death for their actions. others have argued that due to the nature of their exsistance and they ways they have changed create room for some kind of reconciliation with the colonials.

I don't really think it changes much. No matter what sort of screwy manipulation Cavil got into, they still chose genocide. None of them suddenly woke up from a long, hazy dream and asked 'Wow, who blew up the colonials?' Noone has expressed shock, horror and outrage over it nor claimed that they never 'chose' this. They knew what they were going to do, did it, and bear the guilt for it.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 15 2009, 12.10)

You've seen opinions on humanity actually expressed by about a dozen individual Cylons yet are willing to assert the last sentence. Brilliant.

Not really sure what you're getting at. Before Boomer broke the mold, every individual Cylon had voted along their model number in everything. No dissension. Doesn't suggest a whole lot of individuality worth noting. With the exception of those with long exposure to humanity, its pretty safe to say what one #6 says, all the #6's say. We know that they like taking votes on major decisions. Destroying humanity was no doubt a major decision. Presumably they voted on that. Hell, Cavil even claims he voted against it, so we know with probable certainty that they held a genocide vote. Of the model numbers that voted for it, every individual in their entire line is guilty of committing genocide. (presuming they knew they were cylons at the time) Of the models that voted against it (If any, the Cavil matter is unclear. And with these new revelations, it wouldn't even matter if he voted against it since they've more or less asserted that he engineered the whole thing), they're guilty of letting it happen.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 15 2009, 13.17)

But we don't know how much dissension there was among the models.

And guilty of LETTING IT HAPPEN???? WTF is that???? Every voter takes collective guilt for every decision made by a Democracy???

I'll be seeing you in the World Court over GITMO coming soon.

This isn't electing representatives who make countless decisions on a number of different topics, this is a referendum on a single issue. To commit or not commit genocide. Something so horrific and unforgivable, and completely unambiguous. There is no slow removal of the rights and status of a particularly despised minority. No years of propaganda to make them more despised than they already are. And no ignorance or willful self-delusion of what's happening or going to happen. Nor the sense of general powerlessness that one man amongst 50 million voters might feel. These Cylons are all 1 in 7 shares, they have power and influence. If 5 people vote to slaughter a village for no real reason and 2 people vote against it, they're still complicit if they go along with it. They represent a significant enough share to do something, even if its just to break away or refuse to cooperate.

Also, if there was real dissent on the genocide choice, its reasonable to think that one of the many Cylon characters would have mentioned it by now. I've yet to see a 'Well the black guys didn't want this!' (completely forgot that models name) claim. Except for the one from Cavil, which we now know to be BS.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 15 2009, 13.45)

Boy you seem to know a lot about how the Cylons reach decisions. Which is funny, since we've been told almost nothing.

You also seem to attribute 'hive behavior' to them, if not consciously then subconsciously.
Which is also funny, since we've been told they reach agreements. But we've not been told how those agreements are reached or how they are 'enforced'.

Ridiculous. That is the only term for it.

You definitely don't know just how much we don't know. Yet, your mind is set.

We know plenty (or enough) about Cylon decision-making. They hold votes on these big questions. Until Boomer came along, not a single one had ever voted against their model. However many million #5's or #6's there are, all voting in unison? That's about as hive-mindish as it gets. A majority of them clearly voted for genocide, so at least 4 out of the 7 models are 110% guilty of genocide, each and every individual one. As we've not seen a single one beyond the Cavils (which we know is bullshit) express anything that might lead someone to believe they weren't in favor of it, I think its safe to say that the vote was likely better than 4-3. We've had 4 seasons of this, if there was some real dissent on the genocide vote, its reasonable to believe it would have come to light by now. It hasn't.

QUOTE (Wouter @ Feb 15 2009, 13.57)

Adama has put the heads of the riled up peasantry on stakes (so to speak), so he doesn't have to appease them anymore. He won, and he fought a war to allow Cylon technology throughout the fleet. It all started when he forced this to the fuel ship, at gun point. So he is not averse (anymore) to Cylon-anything in the ship; he has opened that box already. The FTL drive is the heart of the ship, one of the most, if not the most, crucial component. He has already given access to that to the Cylons. And it actually worked fine, it only will work even better now. The structural integrity of Galactica though, is not fine at all, and it urgently needs the Cylon technology (which is not awful in itself, to the contrary, it's pretty nifty). So, they fought a civil war over the issue of Cylon technology with dozens and maybe hundreds dead, and now the winning side sudenly balks at actually using this technology when it is needed most of all?

Ummm, sure he does. Crushing the ringleaders doesn't remove the discontent. They very clearly had alot of supporters throughout the fleet. Alot of people who feel the way they do and could cause trouble down the line. Winning the battle and then conceding the primary issue that started it all is not an unreasonable position to take. He could have taken his victory as license to impose his will on the matter, or he could have seen it as a sign that its in his best interests to back away from it and appease in order to bring about quicker reconciliation. Neither choice is unreasonable or illogical. His present reaction is perfectly reasonable. Also, we don't know if Adama continued his FTL plans on the rest of the fleet. Its quite possible that he postponed or canceled those plans in light of the fact that he was very nearly deposed over them.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 15 2009, 14.42)

These Cylons have just proved beyond a doubt their good intentions. Humanity is at their mercy. Galactica is helpless. The fleet is helpless without Galactica. And their next act will apparently to reinforce the humans.

Eichmann may have helped out a poor Jewish family after the war in Argentina...but he's still Eichmann. Their good intentions now don't do a damned thing to remove the guilt of what they did then.

QUOTE (Bronn Stone @ Feb 15 2009, 14.42)

But I'd not be so quick to say that all individual models of those who were on the side that voted to attack the Colonies. We still don't have a clue as to how consensus is reached within the models. It could be the formal vote during which Boomer made her noted dissenting-against-her-model vote is simply a formality - the equivalent of the Electoral College or the House of Lords. That the REAL decision is made in whatever (totally undiscussed) process the models use to reach an agreement within themselves.

We know that they vote and until Boomer, no individual Cylon had ever voted against their model number. It is impossible to reach 100% unanimity across millions of people simply by discussion and consensus building. If any of them truly disagreed, there would be dissenters within the model numbers voting no. There weren't. And even if there was dissent, this was not a vote on what to have for dinner, this was a vote to exterminate a species. Harmonious society be damned, you either voice your disapproval and vote against it or you're entirely complicit.

QUOTE (Ondrew Tyrell @ Feb 15 2009, 18.14)

That line in "Lay Down Your Burdens" was just one particular Cavil's opinion, not the whole model's. I think we still don't know whether he was lying, or when exactly he made up his mind.

Well that opinion was either formed post-genocide after long interaction with humans or it didn't factor in enough to change his vote, since we know with certainty that that Cavil voted with all the other Cavils.

QUOTE (Shryke @ Feb 15 2009, 19.21)

The Cavils voted No on the genocide. At least, as I remember.

So they said. But the events of the last episode make it pretty clear that the Cavils manipulated events to ensure the genocide, so even if that was their vote, its meaningless. They're the most responsible of all the models for engineering it in the first place.